CKC's "ILP"-Good news and bad

Roxy's CD

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#1
I've searched the CKC website and have discovered the CKC's equivalent to the AKC's ILP.

PEN- Performance Event Number

The good news is that there is an equivalent.

The bad news is that it must be a CKC recognized breed.

You need to send the form with two recent pictures of the dog with a signed vet note stating that the dog is a purebred animal height/weight etc. Along with a reason that the dog cannot be CKC registered.


The American Pitbull Terrier is not a recognized breed. Although the Staff is. I'm not quite sure if Hades is passing as a staff :( Actually I'm quite sure he won't...



Roxy, who isn't ready, while Hades is, *might*, just might slip by the radar as a Rottie. I've got my fingers crossed.



Does anyone think that applying for PEN would be wrong? When I know that it's only purebreds they're looking for?

I don't understand why mixed or unrecognized breeds aren't allowed to compete and register with the CKC for events like OB. Both of my animals are s/n, I definitely do not plan on breeding, but we work hard and a title would mean an awful lot to us.

I'm aware of NAMBR which Roxy is registered with, but as I've mentioned many a times the trials are few and far between, the last one anywhere near to me being in September '06 and over a 3 hour drive away.

ACK! This whole purebred/mutt thing is slowly but surely getting to me! Just because my dogs aren't the best representation of a recognized breed, or not a purebred doesn't mean that they don't work hard!

Maybe we'll just have to stick to the correction matches...
 

MafiaPrincess

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#2
You also need the dog microchiped with one of the four brands the CKC will take.

I've read somewhere though that you can't have the dog registered as 'something else' with other registries.. So by already having NAMBR on one... if they somehow find out about it, they may pull titles you receive etc...
 

Roxy's CD

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#3
Ah hah! Thanks.

I did read the part about getting them microchipped, I don't think that would be much of a problem. Just another vet trip. LOL
 

Vivien

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Well i was just looking at pictures of purebreds..I would say they both have a chance! I did a scan in of Hades and of a purebred show staffy (the same size and did an overlay). His lines are remarkably close. There are diffrences but i think he could pass. They are just skinnier representations :D... Good Luck.
 

IliamnasQuest

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#5
Why would lying be an option? You'd also need to get your vet to lie, since the vet has to confirm breed.

By the way, receiving a PEN is not guarantee that judges will accept your dog as being the breed you say they are. If a judge looks at your dog and is pretty certain it's not a purebred, they can disqualify you. So every time you go into the ring you'll have to worry about what the judge will think of your dog in addition to your performance. I know a woman here in Alaska who ILP'd her lab mix and got disqualified at an obedience trial because the judge recognized that the dog was not purebred. She not only couldn't show the dog anymore, but she lost out on all the money she had spent to that point and any titles she had.

While I agree that all dogs should be able to be obedience trained and shown under the rules and regulations of varoius registries, both CKC and AKC are registries that have chosen to promote purebred dogs. It's their option and personally I would prefer to be honest about what my dogs are than to lie and try to sneak in. If you had a registry or club and set certain rules, wouldn't you appreciate that people followed those rules? A person can choose to follow the rules and be part of the group, or not be a part of the group because they don't want to follow the rules.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
 

Sunnierhawk0

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#6
I have to agree with Melanie on this one. Why lie to the CKC? There are other venues out there that will allow mix breed dogs to compete without you having to lie about the origin of your dog.

Plus, will your vet be willing to lie for you? What are your dogs listed as in your vets office?

And to be honest, while she is still adorable, your Roxy screams out Rottweiler or Doberman mix to me. Def. not a full blooded Rottweiler. She looks way to tall and nothing about her body or her head says Full blooded Rottweiler to me. And I can tell you right off that any judge that knows better will question her.

I know there is a registry just for mixed breeds that have obedieince, agility, heck I even think they may have something for conformation, if you can beleive it!
 

Roxy's CD

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#7
Yes, there is a registry for mixed breeds. It's called NAMBR: North American Mixed Breed Registry.

Wanna know something funny about it?

There are tonnes of purebred, CKC registered animals that choose to compete in NAMBR. (They use it as a "practice" show, campaigners that show every week take mixed dogs chances away to obtain high scores, for limited entry shows, deny mixed dogs entry when there are more than enough CKC sanctioned matches in this area with little NAMBR etc.) They are allowed by NAMBR's rules and regulations, but don't you think that's kind of unfair????

While I understand your points, and yes, I am more than aware that most can tell Roxy is not a purebred, especially if you *breed* rotties, lol, it's an option that I think I'm going to try.

I haven't spoken to my vet yet, but if she declines, I will not be angry.

If the CKC board declines, I will not be angry. But heck, at least I tried.

After speaking to a few people though, I'm quite sure Hades will get a PEN number. The APBT is not recognized but the American Staffordshire Terrier is. While an experienced eye can see the difference, the CKC's rule about them is they are the "same" (The AST being the show strain of the APBT) and they've chosen the name of AST as the one to register under. A lady knows of a APBT identical to Hades that got a PEN and is currently working on his UD.
 

IliamnasQuest

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There are tonnes of purebred, CKC registered animals that choose to compete in NAMBR. They are allowed by NAMBR's rules and regulations, but don't you think that's kind of unfair????
Well, no. If it's under the rules, then what's unfair? These people aren't lying in order to be a part of this organization. Without these dogs, it may be that there wouldn't be enough dogs to justify putting on a trial. It's very likely that NAMBR included purebred dogs initially so that there would be enough to pay for the trials that YOU want to enter. Granted, it may be that now there are more than enough but in the meantime it was the purebred dogs which allowed NAMBR to offer things for mixed breed dogs too. Now that they're not needed, would it be "FAIR" to cast them aside?

To me, part of the problem in today's society is that people are willing to lie so easily. I wonder if anyone associated with the Canadian Kennel Club is reading this .. I think that people lying and trying to get in under the rules means that clubs have to add in even MORE rules to try to avoid these problems (meaning that those with legitimate claims have to jump through more hoops just because some were willing to be dishonest).

Now, is that FAIR?

Why not spend your time honestly and work toward getting more organizations and trials for mixed breed dogs in your area? That would benefit you and others too and would be a lot better than lying to the CKC.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
 

sam

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#10
I just honestly don't see the point.
I can trial every weekend and neither dog is registered with the CKC. For agility I'd FAR rather do AAC or NADAC trials and for rally I would FAR FAR FAR prefer APDT or CARO rally to CKC rally. For regular obedience I can do UKC. Why lie and try to force your way into a registry for purebred dogs. Your dogs are gorgeous and you adore them AND neither look like a purebred CKC breed. So what ?
Rosie is a tattoed, purebred aussie. I could eeeasily get her PEN. I have never bothered with a CKC PEN for her because frankly I don't see the point- when I go trials, I take both dogs and I have no shortage of sports for them --only a shortage of time and money :p Honestly, around here CKC trials don't really "count" in the agility world and CKC rally is just geting started and a bit silly at this point too. I guess maybe if I was huge into OB but why not UKC ?

Actually when the CKC starts registering border collies again Sammy could get his too. I just wouldn't. I dunno. I agree with Melanie. I think it's wrong but mostly I just don't get it.
 

MafiaPrincess

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#11
My choice is AAC agility, and CARO rally.. even though it would be no issue to get Cider a PEN.. I've thought about it. But it works out to a goodly amount of money between registering and chipping that 'd have to feel pretty hardcore about a sport to choose the CKC right now.
I don't really get the point at an outright lie myself.. Maybe if there weren't venues where mixes could compete.. but since there are..
 

Roxy's CD

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#12
Sam- That's awesome that there are a number of clubs that allow dogs who aren't purebreds to compete in your area.

Do you have a link for their websites? We're not in the same area but who knows, *shrugs*

We have attended two correction matches, one is coming up this Sunday and seeing as it's just a pretend show, your dogs don't have to be registered to give it a go. To be honest, I like the correction matches, *I* treat it as a real trial, we get scored, and there's none of this hubbub about "purebred"/"mutt" crap.

As I've said before and I'll say it again, as far as I know, in this area NAMBR trials are the only ones that allow unregistered, mixed breeds to compete. And they are far and few between.

And as for Quest's remarks. I would love to hear everyone's jabbering if YOU were denied entry to a CKC trial (with your registered purebred), a club dedicated to promoting *purebred* animals because of a bunch of mutts (this is of course in some parallel dimension where the CKC would allow mixed breeds, just switching the tables around).

But you are right, rules are rules. I've already stated that if either my vet decides to not vouch for us, or we don't get "in" I'm not going to be angry. It's not the fact that it's a rule that does happen to bother me, but more or less the people who have their nose stuck up in the air because of their blue blooded animals. The whole idea of it is basically saying that purebreds are better than mutts, hence why they have their own "club" and us "bums" are denied entry to it. *BUT* they can enter in trials that are held by the club that had to be created to allow the rejects aka mutts, to compete in.

And I do hope someone from the wonderful, big bad CKC reads this. I'm not quite sure if this rule is somehow supposed to deter people from breeding mixes or deter people from rescuing/adopting animals.

It doesn't really matter does it. Thanks for all of the kind words.
 

IliamnasQuest

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Oh sheesh. No one called mixed breeds "rejects" - well, except for YOU. No one is sticking their noses in their air because they have "blue blooded" dogs. I've had purebreds and I've had mixed breeds. I've chosen to show my purebreds in the venues I can, and some of those venues also allow mixed breeds. I've loved all my dogs regardless of their breed or combination of breeds. And I've shown under ILP's too, before I decided to get registered dogs.

Are you going to gripe when, even if you were able to get a PEN on your rott-mix, you won't be allowed to show in a "herding group only" show? I couldn't show my chow in herding trials even though she was a wonderful herding dog, but I didn't sit around and b*tch about those who could. I went to herding seminars with her and we had a good time - I didn't HAVE to show my dog in order to enjoy her. Rules are rules. We either stay within them, chose to lie and cheat to get past them, or work to change them so that they're more along our personal opinions of "fairness".

You came on here and told us that you're going to lie to CKC so that you can show your dogs. And now you're upset because people find that wrong. If you took a step back and really looked at how you're coming across, you might realize that people are just being ethical and they understand that a registry - any registry - has the right to establish the rules they want. We have the option to abide by them or not be a part of their events.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

BTW, your rott-mix is the one that you've taught, using a shock collar, to not show her dislike of being approached by strangers, correct? Personally I think that showing her in any event where a judge has to touch her is wrong regardless of the venue. You've set up a judge to be bitten without warning (in my opinion).
 

sam

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CKC is the ONLY registry that is for purebreds in Canada that I know of and the only thing I can't do is conformation which isn't an interest for me (although I think I would like to put a versatility title on a dog one day so maaaybe, but I bet I would balk at the cost of campaigning a dog in conformation long enough to get a CH)

If I was you, I would look around to find someone doing a clinic on CARO rally and some trials, fun matches etc. I'm pretty sure CARO is big in Ontario. APDT rally is bigger where I am. CARO has some really cool classes that combine more agility obstacles with OB exercises. I bet your dogs would LOVE it and it's a really fun and low pressure way to start a dog competing. SFE is also now a bonus exercise in APDT rally.

I totally don't feel excluded from the CKC by owning a "mutt" or non purebred dog. Nor do I feel that anyone is saying my dogs aren't as nice or aren't as worthy, far from it. They aren't breeding stock which is fine by me and to me the point of conformation showing.

In the circles I travel CKC trials are the "lesser" not the greater if you know what I mean, certainly for performance events which I guess is all I care about.



Honestly though, I train and compete a fair amount but I really don't care much about titles. The only person who ever really knows what titles your dogs haveis is YOU.

Even on my worst day at a trial (Rosie having a total meltdown and muzzle punching the judge LOL) even if we screw up and place poorly, I still know she is the absolute greatest dog in the world. When I turn and look at my dogs at the start line, part of me is thinking "oh god please hold your start line" but the other part is still overwhelmed with "wow, I am SO priviledged to own that dog that I love with all my heart" and I just want to give that dog a good run and have a blast together.
 

Sunnierhawk0

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#16
Like others have said,

Its not putting your dog down to ask you not to lie about trying to get into the CKC because purebred owners think they are "better than you". I've owned mutts before and the best dog I've owned to date was a goldenXcocker mix from the pound.

Its just the whole going against the rules thing, plus as I think someone else stated, if your dog has a problem with being touched, its def. not the right venue for you because I assum CKC and AKC obedieince/rally and what not are along the same lines.

Good luck in whatever you choose.
 

Roxy's CD

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#17
Quest- In no way was the beginning of this thread me out b*tching. I was just stating what I've found out, what I would have to do etc etc.

The points you chose to bring up however do anger me. If you think it's wrong morally fantastic for you. I did ask what the thoughts and opinions were on the matter. Some chose to disagree but did so in a civil manner, apparently you weren't able to. But the tone you've now decided to take is quite highschool to me.

Stating that mutts were "rejects" was quite clearly an angered tone referring to how the CKC regards them. I thought it was clear.

BTW, your rott-mix is the one that you've taught, using a shock collar, to not show her dislike of being approached by strangers, correct? Personally I think that showing her in any event where a judge has to touch her is wrong regardless of the venue. You've set up a judge to be bitten without warning (in my opinion).
I've decided to respond to this, it's in no way relevant but seeing as you decided to bring it up:

You are quite wrong. I have not taught Roxy to hide her dislike to being touched. I've been working for about a year using methods that have been brought up here and some that haven't, to make her a stable dog when it comes to the SFE. The method's I have chosen have all been *MY* choice, and Roxy has yet to bite anyone so they haven't caused any harm or injury to ANYONE. Yes, a shock collar was used during one session about 3 or more months ago, in which she was shocked 10 times tops, and not for showing any type of agression but for losing eye contact after the command "watch me". It has not been used since, and I've seen some major improvements with her SFE.

As well, with help from other boards, I've gotten some real insight as to what makes Roxy tick when it comes to the SFE.

I don't feel like going through the effort to go back a page and QUOTE, but I'm quite sure it was something along these lines:

Roxy who isn't ready to begin trialling, but Hades is. (referring to the chances that the CKC would even allow us a PEN#)

So, back onto at least a topic with some relevance to the thread after dealing with some obvious attempts to bring up other situations in the hope of... I have no idea....

Sam- Actually both of my guys, starting in March are starting a class for Rally-O. The trainer, who pasted the test to become a Rally-O judge has been involved with dogs for 20 years. I've yet to meet her, but I've heard only wonderful things about her. I have also already spoken with an agility trainer, but she only does classes during the better weather. (She has a gorgeous agility ring, all of the standard equipement etc, but nowhere to work inside during the crappy weather)

Is Rally-O what you mean by CARO rally?

At first, an OB title was really what we were training for. But after a year with Roxy, and close to that with Hades, I can see them getting bored with it. Hence why I signed them up for what I've heard is much more fun, Rally-O.

And as you said, I'm the only one who will ever know what titles my dogs has.

That's why I said before, the correction matches, in which you can't attain real titles, are fun and a good test IMO of how my dogs are doing. I treat it like a real trial, we get scored by someone we don't know and have never met before. The whole environment is the same as a real show too.

Mafia- Thanks for the link.
 

sam

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old thread resurected for Lizmo

Sam- Actually both of my guys, starting in March are starting a class for Rally-O. The trainer, who pasted the test to become a Rally-O judge has been involved with dogs for 20 years. I've yet to meet her, but I've heard only wonderful things about her. I have also already spoken with an agility trainer, but she only does classes during the better weather. (She has a gorgeous agility ring, all of the standard equipement etc, but nowhere to work inside during the crappy weather)

Is Rally-O what you mean by CARO rally?

At first, an OB title was really what we were training for. But after a year with Roxy, and close to that with Hades, I can see them getting bored with it. Hence why I signed them up for what I've heard is much more fun, Rally-O.

And as you said, I'm the only one who will ever know what titles my dogs has.

That's why I said before, the correction matches, in which you can't attain real titles, are fun and a good test IMO of how my dogs are doing. I treat it like a real trial, we get scored by someone we don't know and have never met before. The whole environment is the same as a real show too.

Mafia- Thanks for the link.
sorry I missed your question. I was looking for this thread since it discussed ILP's / PEN's which Lizmo is looking into as well.

"Rally obedience" is the name of the sport, CARO is one organisation that holds trials APDT is the other. CKC is just starting to get into it around here. AKC has been doing Rally for a while but the rules are quite different.

Someone posted the links to CARO's site and APDT is www.apdt.com - click on rally.

CARO seems to be more popular in BC and Ontario. I'm in Alberta and we mostly have APDT rally trials. I'm hoping to find some CARO rials because I'd love to try their versatility rally - with healing on both the right and the left and the addition of more agility obstacles-- it looks like FUN!

That's great that you've found a trainer to teach you rally. I bet you and the dogs will love it. It's a great sport.


FWIW I just read through this thread again and I think you've gotten the absolute wrong idea of what Melanie is saying. She isn't saying anything remotely negative about non purebred dogs -- nobody is.
What she is against is people lying about or knowingly misrepresenting their dogs in order to compete in AKC trials and asking others to lie for them.
The AKC is a club for purebred registered dogs and IMO that's just fine. I do agree purposely lying and misrepresenting your dog or yourself is wrong-- that's a pretty simple concept and has nothing to do with what anyone thinks of non purebred dogs. There are lots of groups in the world that cater to certain people that I can't belong to - eg. I am a registered nurse we have a professional organisation and it does not include LPN's (liscensed practical nurses). Does that mean we disrespect them or think less of them? Heck no. It's just DIFFERENT. We have different responsabilities and job descriptions. In university my husband belonged to the law studenst association. I couldn't belong because I' wasn't a law student. Does that mean they are snooty or think they are better than me? No but it's an organization for LAW students. To me the AKC/ CKC thing is as simple as that.

It's funny because depending on the circles you travel in you certainly see different sides to things. I hang out with agility people, rally people, obedience and herding people--LOTS of non CKC or AKC registered dogs. Lots of mutts. Talk to some border collie people about CKC or AKC border collies LOL. In that world it's a BAD thing if your dog IS registered with the AKC.

You seem to be feeling slighted or insulted and there is no slight or insult here that I can see- just a misunderstanding.

I agree with Melanie that people's time and effort would be better spent bringing other trials into their area, finding out what's out there than trying to lie their way into a group for purebred dogs.
 

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