Ceaser Milan

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#81
but nothing in that at all is unique to cesar.
Oh, I know. I have said that his philosophy has been around for a long time. I'm fully aware of that. So has positive reinforcement. We've been studying that since Skinner named it in the 1930s. And Classical Conditioning (used in clicker training) even before that. I'm not claiming that Cesar invented anything. He's just brought it to the forefront of the consciousness of dog owners in the US. Much as Karen Pryor has made clicker training a household name.

And as a personal opinion, I LIKE Cesar. I like his personality and admire his connection with dogs. He's fun to watch and I learn a lot from him.


We all know about the one he put on the treadmill who got hurt, but what else is there?
Actually, he didn't put the dog on the treadmill. Cesar wasn't even there. It's an interesting story, because while Cesar did give his staff permission to have the dog in his "Psychology Center", there was no contract and the dog owner didn't pay a fee for the use of the facility. He was getting a freebie, and there was an unfortunate accident, but Cesar wasn't involved. That's not to say he doesn't carry some responsibility. He does. And he owned up and paid.

Source

I know this topic is great forum fodder, but it never ever gets anywhere.
At least a discussion with 2 sides is a little more interesting and informative than 6 pages of a one-sided consensus of loathing. Well, to me, anyway. It doesn't get much of anywhere, but at least people are (usually) permitted to express their opinions. But as houndlove has pointed out, apparently opinions expressing support for Cesar Millan are a little too uncomfortable and not welcome in this thread. That's okay. I have expressed my opinion and now it can return to the totally useless and uninformative mission of a Cesar bash-fest.

People have as many differences of opinion on dog training, just like they do on politics and religion. There is no set way, you do what works for you.
Exactly! Well-said.
 

Dekka

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#82
Well I go back to school today, holiday is over :( I will look over the next few weeks to find where people have been badly bitten by their dogs AFTER CM has worked with them. Some seem to imply that they have settled out of court and part of the agreement is not to talk about it (smart really)

He will go the same way as Monty Roberts, given as much time. (took a long time for people to see him for the fraud he is too :))

Its very true Dan they never go anywhere, but often if I (and others) say nothing, then people will think we agree with him. I do get tired of pointing out the fallacies of pack theory (as related by CM) but its usually new people to the forum everytime.

(there are interesting situations, but how can you stand to watch the animals so stressed by CM? Doesn't it make you want to step in there yourself ;) I would trust you Dan, to train my dogs-and I know we don't always agree. Long before I trusted them to CM)
 

houndlove

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#83
I have expressed my opinion and now it can return to the totally useless and uninformative mission of a Cesar bash-fest.
Just to re-iterate, the point of the original post, was asking people who do not like Cesar why they do not. Are people not allowed to ask that question and get honest replies any more?

Given that a lot of people come here assuming that if you have dogs you must love Cesar, this thread was quite informative.
 

lostcoyote

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#85
And there's a really unnecessary personal insult if I've ever seen one.
no.

i stated:
"now there's a double digit IQ statement if i've ever seen one."

what that means, is that the STATEMENT is double digit IQ material. it is an ignorant statement but that does not nessessarily reflect upon bordercollie22 as a low IQ individual.

i said absolutly nothing about the PERSON (bordercollie22) who wrote it.
i don't know bordercollie22. but i saw the post and it is what it is.

(but you can interpret it as a personal insult if you wish)

now if bordercollie22 had actually been on the set to witness camera activity over the couirse of several months and made such a statement, then it would be valid. but something tells me that is not the case. bordercollie22 is just another anti CM basher/hater.
 

jjwoodee

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#86
I believe wolf pack theory has been proven not to be 100% applicable to dogs. But dog pack theory, disregarding wolves, is quite valid. Dogs aren't wolves, but in groups, they display observable behavior indicating that some dogs within the group are more submissive members of the group... others are in more commanding roles.
If anyone has traveled outside the country particulary South America and India one can't help but notice ferrel dogs that hang out together in the towns. They only naturally gravite toward establishing a dog pack. People in South America, Mexico (small town and city locals) and not the wealthy (they actually own dogs like american families)view dogs as something that is outside and stays outside. They offer them occasional scraps for acting as alarms but thats about it. I should know when we had our pup traveling around and visiting my wifes poorer family members in Peru were a bit offended that we wanted the puppy to stay in the house with us and potty train him - we were using newspapers at the time.

Anyways, I imagine that impoverished areas and their peoples can;t be spending a bundle of time or their own food training their dogs with treats like we can in America. They have different needs. I think in our country and Europe, alot of owners bring in dogs as extensions to their family to fulfill their emotional needs.

I have seen some incredible levels of poverty in India that is appalling to western standards. There we alwys dogs running around -along with cows and pigs. When we ask the dogs to come live with us behind four walls their has to be some semblence of structure and rules - without rules the dog has no other choice but to resort to behaviors that we find unacceptable in human living environment to express their frustrations.
 

Dekka

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#87
Actually it was studying the feral dogs in countries like south america, that it was observed they did not form family packs like wolves and coyotes. They hang out with who ever is there, not a stable pack. The hierarchy is not applicable, with the 'alpha' wolves mating only. All available dogs breed with all available bitches. And yes dogs roaming free, like in Greece, often have much better social skills than those raised solitarily in a house. But that has to do with socialization and nothing to do with pack theory.
 

Dekka

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#89
Umm well basically people have come out of the woodwork, including family and childhood friends to tell the truth about how he grew up. And I do know of numerous successful lawsuits of people being badly hurt very shortly after receiving their horses back from training. If you google the truth about Monty Roberts you should find plenty of reading (I find his stuff even harder to watch than CM..like that video where he chases the young horse for over 24 hours....oh and the camera crew from that video has come forward to tell some interesting things too)
 

adojrts

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#90
Monty's a fraud? Dang, saw him years ago in KY and was very impressed, what's the scoop?
I saw Monty too, but at least his methods did some good instead of taking them back 20 years. With the exception of what he did to that poor little mustang, that was bloody criminal.
After his book came out he was sued right left and centre by his family members and others etc. I can't remember which mag it was but it was either H & R, or Equus that did an expose on him. It was after all that that he recanted that everything in his book was 'correct'. He claimed it was a story and not a Bio.
His history with horses was fabricated, so was the fact that he did all that work with foster kids (not one kid), so it turns out that most of his life, experiences etc were fabricated to sell a book and himself. Did he develop Join Up and Follow Up, well that is the big question, some claim he didn't and stole it from some else but he marketed it and claimed it as his own.
 

Dekka

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#92
Mellisa that is the nice thing about actual behaviour modification, even if the owners don't follow it strictly, the dog will still be ok in a month, because behaviours are being fixed, not just masked.
 

MelissaCato

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#93
Mellisa that is the nice thing about actual behaviour modification, even if the owners don't follow it strictly, the dog will still be ok in a month, because behaviours are being fixed, not just masked.
No dog will be ok in a month if the owners don't follow through with the "modification". CM is visiting clients from what I see on tv, he's establishing his methods, the "modification" your talking about is up to the owners to carry them through. It's a clear fact of owner and dog mismatch, if the dog is to fail with CM's methods after he concludes. He is clear on every program he's there to help the owners understand thier dog.
It's useless to argue. He's known.
Just like horses, if a horse was a blood born bronc, it's gonna buck. A trainer can remedy this with modification, but any rider who fancies a buck outa that horse, they got it.
 

Dekka

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#94
Hmm sounds like you have never exp behaviour modification. I have trained horses that were "born bronc" they are like any other horse, just a little more 'sharp'. And if a dogs fears are dealt with, barring a bad exp they should never come back. If a dog understands that jumping up on people is never rewarding, but sitting could be..they will not revert in a month :D trust me on that.

Really this emphasizes why I am not keen on methods that suppress, the old behaviours WILL come back, unless you keep working on suppressing them.
 

MelissaCato

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#95
Hmm sounds like you have never exp behaviour modification. I have trained horses that were "born bronc" they are like any other horse, just a little more 'sharp'. And if a dogs fears are dealt with, barring a bad exp they should never come back. If a dog understands that jumping up on people is never rewarding, but sitting could be..they will not revert in a month :D trust me on that.

Really this emphasizes why I am not keen on methods that suppress, the old behaviours WILL come back, unless you keep working on suppressing them.
What ever you say. This all sounds to me like blame the trainer not the people who own the dog. Another liberal mindset to evade owner responsibilities.

Did you watch the program he aired with the lady who was President of this Breed Club, Owner of that Breed Club, delegate for this training center and that dog school, National Show winner and all her hoopla ?
Well, I bet he thought too, what a joke. And to add the joke was on her because in that viewing he aired her doing all the training he instructed her to do and she still couldn't control her dog. I bet she was in the 68% mentioned on this thread about 'his' failure.
 

adojrts

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#96
Just like horses, if a horse was a blood born bronc, it's gonna buck. A trainer can remedy this with modification, but any rider who fancies a buck outa that horse, they got it.
Oh good grief, if that were the case than every TB bred to be a race horse, would get the job done. Just because an animal has been specifically bred for a job, doesn't guarantee that it will have the desire or the ability to do that job. I known many impeccability bred TB's, insured for millions as foals, or sold for millions as sales yearlings, that didn't have the desire to out run a fat man up a hill. Some of them are very content to lope along and often end up making cute childrens hunters.
If they can't guarantee it with Tb's that have been specifically bred for over 4 hundred years, how can they guarantee a bucking bred horse that has only been specifically bred for less than a hundred years? Those bucking horse breeding programs are in their infancy compared to Tb's. Not to mention the money difference.
 

MelissaCato

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#97
Oh good grief, if that were the case than every TB bred to be a race horse, would get the job done. Just because an animal has been specifically bred for a job, doesn't guarantee that it will have the desire or the ability to do that job. I known many impeccability bred TB's, insured for millions as foals, or sold for millions as sales yearlings, that didn't have the desire to out run a fat man up a hill. Some of them are very content to lope along and often end up making cute childrens hunters.
If they can't guarantee it with Tb's that have been specifically bred for over 4 hundred years, how can they guarantee a bucking bred horse that has only been specifically bred for less than a hundred years? Those bucking horse breeding programs are in their infancy compared to Tb's. Not to mention the money difference.
Yes, Ohhh good grief is right.
 

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