Ceaser Milan

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#41
Cm

i have read every post in this thread. there has been really good observations written by everyone who has posted. i have to comment and add my two cents worth:
i have korean jindos. they are great dogs and rare outside of california in this country. the first time i had heard them mentioned outside of a breed specific publications was on the dog whisperer. it should have made me really happy that an interesting and smart breed was going to get this kind of attention.
when i was training dogs at PetSmart, my good friend and head trainer recommended watching some CM because so many people reference his methods when they start the course and it helps to know what your customers are talking about. i don't have national geographic and so she invited me over to watch the show which featured Jindos.
it was awful: he started out by demonizing Jindos as agressive and unsuitable for living with families with small children or with families period. he said that most people leave them in the backyard with good reason: they are untrustworthy. then, as a dominance exercise, he put a choke chain on the dog and held the dog off of the ground so that only his back toes were touching the ground. his front paws were off the ground. cm held him that way until he was "calm", then let him down. if the dog moved without his permission, cm repeated this action. the owners stood by and let this happen. the justification? this dog was a rescue off of the street.
we watched it first with the sound off and then with the sound on. it is astonishing the difference that his accent makes. and he distracts with his running commentary.
i have great dogs who have been trained with +R methods. every jindo i know is a good dog.
i teach school. if i used any methods for R (+ or otherwise) that were considered acceptable and necessary 45+ years ago i would be fired. most teaching methods from that era are laughed about if they are brought up in faculty meetings now. if i tried to teach without proper training or without proper certification and relied on my experience alone, i wouldn't be called a professional, i'd be drummed out of town on a pole. and rightly so.
karen pryor has a great article about why cm is on oprah and clicker training isn't. it has a lot to do, i think, with america's obsession with the amateur - you know Next Super Iron Design Big Thing that was Living Right Next to You. and you could be next.
i know that lots of people have said similar things but i really don't want my breed demonized in any way by him, so i felt like i needed to say something.
 
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#43
All my dogs have been raised Ceasers way, and they are all great dogs.
All my dogs have been, too. I LOVE Cesar Millan. I know he has a lot of detractors (clearly), and that's ok. He is certainly not for everyone.

But I really appreciate the work he does to save dogs that would otherwise be put down or recycled back into the rescue/shelter system. And I know millions appreciate him for helping them to get their situation under control. He's doing a marvelous service for problem dogs and their people.

He's just one person, sharing what he knows. Take it or leave it.

Fortunately, he stresses that people should contact a professional several times during every show. As I see it, if people don't do that, it's hardly his fault. On TV, we see people racing cars, bungee jumping and performing all kinds of ridiculous feats and stunts, but nobody is all up in arms about those shows... I don't hold Cesar responsible for the mistakes every Joe Dogowner makes with their dogs.

Bottom line, if he weren't doing something right, he wouldn't be in the position he is with so many adoring fans and benefactors. Would he? Love him or hate him, it doesn't really matter. There are plenty of people on both sides of this icon. But he's helping dogs. He has helped MY dogs. And that, to me, is what's important.
 

Dekka

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#44
I love it when people say he saves dogs. Maybe, but he ruins many. I would hazard that as many dogs are euthanized due to his outdated training techniques as are saved. There are many stories of people who's dogs he has fixed, reverting.

Some of his methods are ok, but he sites the wrong reasons. It is not dominance but training. For example, the idea that the dominant dog goes through doors first is hogwash. How ever training your dog to wait for you to go through first is a good thing, so the dog learns that the human controls the exciting resourse of going outside. It teaches the dog to be obedient and observant, it is also safer. So raising a dog with some of CMs stuff (as long as you though out the down right abuse...which there is LOADS of in his show) is ok, as long as you realize he is a fancy snake oil salesman. He points to shut down scared dogs (dog is now lying still on the floor in fear the strange man is going to do something 'scary' the dog might appeasingly wag its tail and look away too try to calm the monster his family has invited into their house) and says look there is a trained dog. Wrong, its now a confused scared dog. I don't get me started with the abuse related lawsuits.

People say "what he says makes sense" and it does, if you are a human. It does not make sense from the dog's point of view. And who is it we are trying to train?
 

adojrts

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#45
All my dogs have been, too. I LOVE Cesar Millan. I know he has a lot of detractors (clearly), and that's ok. He is certainly not for everyone.

But I really appreciate the work he does to save dogs that would otherwise be put down or recycled back into the rescue/shelter system. And I know millions appreciate him for helping them to get their situation under control. He's doing a marvelous service for problem dogs and their people.

He's just one person, sharing what he knows. Take it or leave it.

Fortunately, he stresses that people should contact a professional several times during every show. As I see it, if people don't do that, it's hardly his fault. On TV, we see people racing cars, bungee jumping and performing all kinds of ridiculous feats and stunts, but nobody is all up in arms about those shows... I don't hold Cesar responsible for the mistakes every Joe Dogowner makes with their dogs.

Bottom line, if he weren't doing something right, he wouldn't be in the position he is with so many adoring fans and benefactors. Would he? Love him or hate him, it doesn't really matter. There are plenty of people on both sides of this icon. But he's helping dogs. He has helped MY dogs. And that, to me, is what's important.
I am curious, have you read any of links posted concerning CM, his methods and how world reknowned and leading behaviouralists and trainers has to say about him???

Hey Dekka, where are those stats on Milans long term failure rate? I can't find them, although I haven't worked to hard at it. I don't care to read and wade through all the Milan crap again lol.
 

heartdogs

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#46
All my dogs have been, too. I LOVE Cesar Millan. I know he has a lot of detractors (clearly), and that's ok. He is certainly not for everyone.

But I really appreciate the work he does to save dogs that would otherwise be put down or recycled back into the rescue/shelter system. And I know millions appreciate him for helping them to get their situation under control. He's doing a marvelous service for problem dogs and their people.

He's just one person, sharing what he knows. Take it or leave it.

Fortunately, he stresses that people should contact a professional several times during every show. As I see it, if people don't do that, it's hardly his fault. On TV, we see people racing cars, bungee jumping and performing all kinds of ridiculous feats and stunts, but nobody is all up in arms about those shows... I don't hold Cesar responsible for the mistakes every Joe Dogowner makes with their dogs.

Bottom line, if he weren't doing something right, he wouldn't be in the position he is with so many adoring fans and benefactors. Would he? Love him or hate him, it doesn't really matter. There are plenty of people on both sides of this icon. But he's helping dogs. He has helped MY dogs. And that, to me, is what's important.
I actually find this pretty amusing. Cesar says to take your dog to a professional. Well, I'm a professional. But, I still deal, every single day, with people who don't want to believe me about their dogs because they saw this dude on TV yanking the "terrifying jindo" into submission, or dragging the Great Dane across the floor (needless to say these are also people who wouldn't know a stress signal if it bit them, and care more about results than about results with humane methods. They think I, or any other trainer or behaviorist, for that matter, should be able to "fix" what's wrong with their dog pretty much instantly (and, oddly, they always seem to think in terms of fixing, not training), and wonder why it costs "x" or takes "x" time. And, to be honest, I get the same reaction from people on message boards, too. They think I'm full o' beans, if they watch this guy, when I talk about classical conditioning, desensitization, positive reinforcement. And, some of them spend most of their posting day trying to refute everything I say. So much for Cesar's advice or his disclaimer.
And, as for him being good at marketing, I think that ability rests with Oprah - without her he'd still be looking over his shoulder for the border patrol.
 

Angelique

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#47
Cesar's great! I've been using a similar philosophy for years with excellent results. My current dog was a wreck when I first brought her home from the shelter. She is doing awesome now!

I was really surprised when I first saw his show. I'm so glad someone is finally understanding how dogs think and view us through a dog's eyes.

I can't recommend his philosophies, show, books, dvd's, seminars, etc...highly enough!

I can see how some folks misunderstand what he's doing and what he's trying to teach based on the belief systems of the the +R authors, trainers, and their followers. You either "get-it", or you don't...and that's okay.

The holy crusade against him is a bit sad, though.

The International Association of Canine Professionals (IACP) site is an interesting read. Be sure and check out their articles section in addition to Cesar's tips.

www.dogpro.org/

Happy New Year and happy training!
 

Dekka

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#48
hmm its not a holy crusade. But most of us on this forum love dogs, and so see the stress behaviours exhibited by the dogs on his show are too painful for many to watch. I am a pretty strong person, I can't watch his show, I am conflicted between wanting to cry and going to hit something. I find it sad that people cling to loving his 'methods' even when no proffesional behaviouralist endorses him, infact all are quite verbal against his methods. Some say its jealousy, but jealousy over what? Most of the good behaviouralists (like Ian Dunbar) have their own TV shows, lots of clients etc...

And there success rates are much higher than those of CM. Lynn, I don't have them handy, they are out there on the net, but you have to dig for them. They were the stats as said by one of the big wigs in National Geographic when they were trying to defend him. I think it was acutally about 80% which sounds good, till you realize that wouldn't even get you published in a journal. Most ACTUAL behaviouralist/trainers have a success rate of over 98%.

Just a note even Oprah dropped him. If you want to love his methods, thats fine..some people still believe the world is flat, even when You show them the proof. If you can't see the stress his methods evoke, well I weep for your dog, and for you-for the relationship you COULD have had.
 
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#49
I am curious, have you read any of links posted concerning CM, his methods and how world reknowned and leading behaviouralists and trainers has to say about him???
I don't know which links you're referring to, but yes, I do know that a LOT of people, trainers and behaviorists don't agree with a lot of what he says and does. And a lot also do. And of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Like any public figure or subject close to our hearts, there are plenty of people on both sides of the issue. I make my determinations based on my own experience and observations, not on what someone I don't even know has to say about it. And let's be honest, Cesar's success would be a really motivating reason for other professionals to try to "shoot him down", if you know what I mean.

What I would really like to see is some data on the alleged stories of dogs being euthanized and reverting. Any dog, using any training or rehabilitation method would revert if the people didn't keep up with it. If they don't keep up with it, I really can't blame Cesar for that. That's like blaming my obedience instructor because I didn't do the homework during the week and now my dog won't sit.

I would also love to see the data on all these lawsuits. I know of only one lawsuit and Cesar wasn't even there when the dog was injured... He's just the one with the money.

I appreciate the concern, but there's no need to weep for my dogs and our relationships. We are excellent!
 

Dekka

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#50
If you do some looking you will find it, often it has been settled out of court. Behaviour science, is science, and what he does is short term. My fave comment about his show is you can put a bandaid over a bullet wound on TV and call it healed, but the patient is still dead.

He uses suppression, not training...for example..

Lets say you were afraid of men in big black hats (lets call them BBH) and you can't speak the same language as your loved ones for some reason. Every time you see a man in a BBH you yell stay back. But your loved ones just yell, or strangle you until you shut up. Does this make you like men in BBH? Not likely. Does it make you stop yelling at them, sure. Does it make you distrustful of those you care for, also likely. Now what happens of your loved ones, thinking you are now cured, allow a man in a BBH to come over and give you a hug? It doesn't matter if they kept up with the yelling and the strangling, you might still push them away...

Now take a behaviouralists method.. Every time you see a man in a BBH your loved one slips you a $50 (or something you really like) They make sure no man in a BBH gets close enough that you are really scared. Eventually you will start to point out the men in BBHs, and become excited when you see one. Eventually they will become a happy image for you, not a scary one.

The above method works on all animals. CM would not work on a lion or killer whale, or even a house cat, his methods take into the account that dogs are amongst the most forgiving and patient of creatures.
 

adojrts

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#51
I don't know which links you're referring to, but yes, I do know that a LOT of people, trainers and behaviorists don't agree with a lot of what he says and does. And a lot also do. And of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Like any public figure or subject close to our hearts, there are plenty of people on both sides of the issue. I make my determinations based on my own experience and observations, not on what someone I don't even know has to say about it. And let's be honest, Cesar's success would be a really motivating reason for other professionals to try to "shoot him down", if you know what I mean.

What I would really like to see is some data on the alleged stories of dogs being euthanized and reverting. Any dog, using any training or rehabilitation method would revert if the people didn't keep up with it. If they don't keep up with it, I really can't blame Cesar for that. That's like blaming my obedience instructor because I didn't do the homework during the week and now my dog won't sit.

I would also love to see the data on all these lawsuits. I know of only one lawsuit and Cesar wasn't even there when the dog was injured... He's just the one with the money.

I appreciate the concern, but there's no need to weep for my dogs and our relationships. We are excellent!
They were posted in this very thread.
Did you know that Dr. N Dodman, leading behavioralist and head of the the Behavioural Sciences and the Behavioural Clinic at Tuffs wrote to the National Geo Channel informing them that CM has taken dog training BACK 20 yrs??
What you just don't get, is its isn't that the methods don't work to some degree but those methods are centuries OLD and outdated. The pack theory that he uses is based on research that was proven to be flawed and WRONG!! Even the org. researchers admit that!!
There are better methods now, based on sound behavioural research, proven to be humane and MORE effective.
So don't read, don't educate yourself, its your dogs loss. And btw, most of the people including the ones on this forum, use to use such methods and we believed then too. We've been there done that. So if you think that we don't understand, don't know the methods and are bleeding hearts..........your wrong.
 

Saintgirl

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#52
They were posted in this very thread.
Did you know that Dr. N Dodman, leading behavioralist and head of the the Behavioural Sciences and the Behavioural Clinic at Tuffs wrote to the National Geo Channel informing them that CM has taken dog training BACK 20 yrs??
What you just don't get, is its isn't that the methods don't work to some degree but those methods are centuries OLD and outdated. The pack theory that he uses is based on research that was proven to be flawed and WRONG!! Even the org. researchers admit that!!
There are better methods now, based on sound behavioural research, proven to be humane and MORE effective.
So don't read, don't educate yourself, its your dogs loss. And btw, most of the people including the ones on this forum, use to use such methods and we believed then too. We've been there done that. So if you think that we don't understand, don't know the methods and are bleeding hearts..........your wrong.

You stole the very words out of my mouth. Education is the key.
 
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#54
Gosh, I didn't know people would be so objectionable to my opinions. But that's ok, too. :)

If you do some looking you will find it, often it has been settled out of court.
I'm not going to go in search of data to prove your allegations.

Lets say you were afraid of men in big black hats
Only one problem... I am not a dog. I advocate desensitization. I believe there is a time and place for flooding, but I have used desensitization with my dogs.

Did you know that Dr. N Dodman, [...] wrote to the National Geo Channel informing them that CM has taken dog training BACK 20 yrs??
No, not specifically, but as I said, we're entitled to our opinions and so is Dr. Dodman.

What you just don't get...
I'm sorry. I don't believe you have enough information to tell me what I "get" and what I don't "get". You are mistaken. I DO know how old his methods are. :) But that in itself does not prove them outdated or useless. If that were the case, then we could say that since Scientific Method is old, it's outdated, and I'm SURE you would disagree with that. And conversely, just because something is "new and improved", doesn't mean it's better, or everyone would be running Windows Vista! LOL

I am also aware of the pack theory studies and subsequent findings. I'm also aware of Operant Conditioning and positive reinforcement training. I used to use it exclusively. So I've been on both sides of the fence as well. You might say I've also been there, done that. ;)

I think positive reinforcement is great! I still use it all the time. But I have expanded into the other quadrants of OC along with other types of learning theory.

So don't read, don't educate yourself, its your dogs loss.
Excuse me. I am highly educated in this subject. :) And my dogs benefit from my education.

So if you think that we don't understand, don't know the methods and are bleeding hearts.....
I don't think any such thing! I think you have chosen the method you prefer to use with your dogs and I have no negative judgments about that and I wish you all the luck and success in the world! Remember, I'm not accusing you of anything.
 
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harrischrysler

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#55
Ok... I thought I would just be a casual observer and keep myself from being ostracized, but... The overwhelming negative attitude towards one person has forced me to at least add a little balast to the other side. It seems that no matter what your position is as a trainer, you should know every style of training to be an effective trainer. By knowing a heavily sided +R method, as well as the opposite, you can more efficiently communicate to owner's what it is they should be doing. Not everyone is going to be successful with one method. Every owner is different, and every dog is different. So, knowing a variety of methods is the only way to be more responsive to a varying degree of owners. (I didn't sell cars for nine years by only inducing positive thoughts and responses.) There seems to be an underlying movement that has it's motives set on proving the past wrong, be it dog trainers or general history. (stopping myself here.)
All I'm going to end on is: My dogs are happy, know my limits, and do NOT cower and respond to me out of some fear response that a lot of people here seem to want to find. Thank you Mr. Milan, and thank you Mr. Koehler. Less thanks but still gratitude towards Karen Pryor.
-only by knowing your enemy inside out, top to bottom, can you articulate a convincing response.-
Let me have it...
 
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#56
Question: Did YOU contact a professional before beginning to train your dogs with CM's methods?
I don't have problem dogs like those on CM's show. But if I did, I would either contact a professional or be accountable and responsible for the outcome. Whatever I did, he would not be responsible.

Thanks in large part to watching him and reading his books, my dogs never developed any behavioral issues. Any "training" I have done (obedience training, etc) I have used OC. I said I "raised" my dogs with his methods, meaning the basic tenets of his philosophy.
 

Dekka

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#57
But good +P trainers don't like him either. Its not just his methods, its the fact that he is so ridiculously off base in his theories. The popular version pack mentality as spouted by CM has been PROVEN not to be applicable to dogs. Years of research, independently funded, has shown this. Even the original researchers who observed WOLVES back in the late 50's who came up with the idea of how dominance worked, recanted and said they were seeing things that had not been there, and showed the world their new research. Unfortunately pet dog trainers had taken that idea and ran with it.

Here's a flip question to all of you who love him then.. If he is so awesome and his methods work, who do successful trainers and competitiors, esp the world reknown ones not use his methods. If he is so good why is there so much stress behaviour in the dogs on his TV programs.

Oh and I did start with a choke chain etc on my dogs, but have been winning far more red ribbons (that is first place here in Canada..) since I started teaching what I want my dogs to do, vs punishing all that I don't want. So my wall of ribbons pays homage to K Pryor. Really I truely believe if you need to resort to punishment your training method has failed and now you are in damage control. Some of the most successful trainers in the world can do some amazing things..funnily enough with minimal or no -R and +P
 
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harrischrysler

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#58
The world is flat. Sorry. Oh, and humans are causing warming trends in the weather that have been observed since the first thermometer.
 

adojrts

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#59
The world is flat. Sorry. Oh, and humans are causing warming trends in the weather that have been observed since the first thermometer.
What kind of statement is this?? and to what purpose does it serve??

Hey I have a poll for the trainers on this board. How many people and dogs have you had to retrain with issues because these people read and used CM's methods without success? On the same note, how many people have you retrained that have screwed up PR?
Now here is the big one..............which were easier to solve??

My answer...........too many to count that have used CM's methods and failed.
Yep had people who attempted PR and were not successful either, but having said that a little redirecting and they come along just fine.
Much easier to solve with failed PR unless it was to the point where they had no training at all and though that permissive was positive.
 
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#60
The popular version pack mentality as spouted by CM has been PROVEN not to be applicable to dogs.
I believe wolf pack theory has been proven not to be 100% applicable to dogs. But dog pack theory, disregarding wolves, is quite valid. Dogs aren't wolves, but in groups, they display observable behavior indicating that some dogs within the group are more submissive members of the group... others are in more commanding roles.

If he is so awesome and his methods work, who do successful trainers and competitiors, esp the world reknown ones not use his methods.
He is not a dog trainer. So why would trainers use his methods to train dogs?

If he is so good why is there so much stress behaviour in the dogs on his TV programs.
Probably because they are "problem dogs". That's the premise of his program. He works with problem dogs. Aggressive dogs. Dogs who are on their way to the shelters if they don't get some help.

Oh and I did start with a choke chain etc on my dogs, but have been winning far more red ribbons (that is first place here in Canada..)
Congratulations! Yes, Karen Pryor is a great dog trainer. I use many of her methods when training my dogs. Check out this video! I was teaching my husband how to clicker train our puppy. He was off on the timing a few times, but I thought he did a great job.

Clicker Video
 

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