Alaskan Noble Companion Dog

[cliffdog]

Am I saying people should water down working breeds? Can't see where I mentioned what a fantastic idea I think that is....

I don't understand the need to get a dog as a pup. I'msure you could find a shelter dog that's good with babies. Even if you get your puppy from a good breeder, there's a chance a puppy won't turn out right, regardless of socialization. You never know how a puppy will turn out, period, no matter how well-bred... many great dogs have produced culls.

Of course, it's up to you, and it's all purely a matter of personal preference. It's possible that my opinion might be colored by being too softhearted... It pains me to see people breeding simply for companion dogs when so many wonderful companion dogs get piled up into the freezer in the back room of a shelter every day. But that's just me.

 

[Romy]

So you're saying people who want companions don't deserve dogs from health tested, temperament tested parents?

 

[Lyzelle]

So you're saying people who want companions don't deserve dogs from health tested, temperament tested parents?

The majority of people feeding into this wolfy type don't care about temperament or health. They just want a wolfy looking dog to throw in the backyard and brag about. That's why Sibes, Malamutes, and other such breeds have a bad rap now.

I don't *care* about companion breeds. But I DO care about the market they feed, and what that market does with their dogs, and how they ruin everything for the rest of us good owners.

For example: Oh, everyone's ruined Chi's now. They're just ankle biting maniacs with a million health issues. So let's just create another breed to ruin! That totally fixes the problem. /sarcasm.

 

[Lyzelle]

And I did find this quote:

Ann Dresselhaus, creator of the Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD), began this breed from purebreds and mixes that she chose for foundation stock.

So it really doesn't sound like there was any true record keeping at all. Just whatever dog fit the bill.

Then this was said later on down the page:

The ANCD foundation stock came from an eclectic mix of seven breeds. Dresselhaus used five dog groups/type, the seven foundation breeds being: Retriever group (the Black Lab), Northern working group (the Alaskan Malamute, the White Siberian Husky), Sheep Guarding group (the Great Pyrenees), Herding group (the White German Shepherd Dog, the Border Collie), and Sighthound group (the Greyhound).

I love how colors were main focuses on certain breeds/types.

 

[Romy]

I just don't understand why people hate the idea of making a new companion breed so much, when they're doing everything that people wish responsible companion dog breeders would do. Heck, they're disqualified from breeding if the dog can't pass the CGC. There is no other breed/breed in progress in the world with that type of temperament criteria. None of the toy dog clubs require that. No one. And really they should, since a good temperament is one of the most important qualities in a companion, right before good health.

Would you feel better if they bred them to look like ewoks instead of wolves?

ETA: How can you say color was the main focus when the foundation dogs are in the OFA database as well as have working and sport titles?

ETAETA: Here you can look at it yourself. They were even tested for MDR1 and everything.

http://www.offa.org/results.html?num=&registrar=&namecontains=N&part=&breed[]=ANC&breedlist=ALL&variety[]=&sex=&birthday_start_month=&birthday_start_year=&birthday_end_month=&birthday_end_year=&birthday=&rptdte_start_month=&rptdte_start_year=&rptdte_end_month=&rptdte_end_year=&rptdte=&submit=Begin+Search

 

[Lyzelle]

I just don't understand why people hate the idea of making a new companion breed so much, when they're doing everything that people wish responsible companion dog breeders would do. Heck, they're disqualified from breeding if the dog can't pass the CGC. There is no other breed/breed in progress in the world with that type of temperament criteria. None of the toy dog clubs require that. No one. And really they should, since a good temperament is one of the most important qualities in a companion, right before good health.

Would you feel better if they bred them to look like ewoks instead of wolves?

ETA: How can you say color was the main focus when the foundation dogs are in the OFA database as well as have working and sport titles?

I didn't say it was the main. But it was obviously in there.

Breeder might have good intentions, but I still see this going downhill. Just because instead of EDUCATING this market, they are FEEDING it.

I checked OFA, but they are only updated to December 2011.

CARDIAC 2 100%
DEGENERATIVE MYELOPATHY 1 100%
ELBOW 5
HIPS 7 14.3(%abnormal) 85.7%
MULTIPLE DRUG RESISTANCE (MDR1) 3 0.0 100.0
PATELLA 6
PROGRESSIVE RETINAL ATROPHY 1 0.0 100.0

And if they are checking EVERY dog for EVERYTHING....those numbers don't really add up.

 

[Romy]

MRD1 and DM are both simple recessives, so if neither parent is a carrier then offspring are clear by parentage.

And you did say main focus. It was pretty clearly stated.

 

[Lyzelle]

MRD1 and DM are both simple recessives, so if neither parent is a carrier then offspring are clear by parentage.

And you did say main focus. It was pretty clearly stated.

Not main focus of the breed as a whole. One of the main focuses of the breeds selected to be foundation stock.

I guess we'll see in a few years. *shrug* Roaming across breeders websites, I found one where they are using a bitch to improve the Taskman breed, and other they are just breeding to an Alaskan Husky(Part Grey Wolf, mind you) and pumping out pups paid for with PayPal.

Honestly. Founder could have all the best intentions in the world, doesn't mean it's going anywhere.

 

[Dizzy]

I love how colors were main focuses on certain breeds/types.

I didn't say it was the main. But it was obviously in there.

Uhm.... Just saying.

 

[Lyzelle]

Uhm.... Just saying.

Romy said main focus of the breed as a whole. I was only speaking on the types/breeds of dogs selected for foundation.

 

[Lyzelle]

This article raises some questions for me as well.

When Does a Wolf Become a Dog?
or
Are AKC German Shepherds Wolf 'Hybrids' /Wolfdogs ?

by Ann Dresselhaus


I assert that ALL dogs are 'wolfdogs'. The only difference between them (besides
appearance and temperament) is the number of generations away from a 'pure'
wolf the individual canine is. The original German Shepherd studbook,
Zuchtbuch fur Deutche Schaferhunde (SZ), shows several pure wolves were
used to 'create' the breed and this was only 90 years ago! Similar events
can be uncovered for Alaskan Malamutes, Siberian Huskies, Belgian Shepherd
types, and many rarer-breed 'dogs'. German Shepherds were recently the
MOST POPULAR AKC breed. Imagine that -- a 'wolfdog' is the most popular
working/companion dog!

I think a key question to be answered is: WHEN does a 'wolf become a dog??

If she thinks ALL dogs are wolf hybrids, how can she breed something that she said is distinctly NOT a wolf hybrid? Sort of widens the pool of what she might think IS and is NOT a "Wolf Hybrid". There are many breeders that believe anything lower than 40% is NOT a wolf hybrid. So, let's say she used a Sibe with a Grandparent who was full Wolf. Does that make the Sibe a wolf hybrid or not? Slippery slope, there.

Link to full article

ETA: It IS impressive that these dogs, in only a few generations, create very wolfy looking offspring, consistently. No doubt about that. And like I said before, create all the healthy, temperament tested companion dogs you want. I'm all FOR that if it means they'll stop watering down Sibes.

But this market, feeding into the want of a wolfy looking dog...it makes me very iffy. Especially since a few of these dogs have already fallen into bad hands and muddied the waters, like Nobel Paws and other small breeders that DO add Wolf to the bloodlines. I just don't see it ending well, and I think the dogs will suffer for it.

 

[Gempress]

TIf she thinks ALL dogs are wolf hybrids, how can she breed something that she said is distinctly NOT a wolf hybrid?

I think you're way off base in your interpretation of the article. She does NOT think all dogs are wolf hybrids, not in the way you're referring. In the article, she's simply stating that many domestic dogs breeds are descended from wolves. So at some point in the very early origins of many breeds, their ancestors would be what we now consider wolfdogs.

Her entire entire article is about the academic question, "When does a wolf become a dog?" She's referring to wolfdogs that are many generations removed from the original F1 cross. At what point should these crosses be considered dogs, and not wolves? Could they ever be considered dogs?

She points out the GSD as a great illustration of her point, since it apparently has included crossing to wolves on several occasions. I found it pretty interesting reading, actually. I never knew the GSD had documented outcrossings to wolves, even after being established. So, she was raising the academic question: "Should the modern GSD be considered a dog, or a wolfdog?"

I don't see anything wrong or inflammatory when the article.

 

[Laurelin]

From what I was told from the wolfdog person I know (she is very knowledgeable) that a lot of breeders will not consider something past F5 or F6 to be a wolfdog anymore. Or under 30-40% wolf content. They will class these animals as dogs. This is just in general, not saying that happened here.

The problem is they could still legally be classified as a wolfdog and thus might be illegal in a particular state. But the new owner thinks they're getting something all dog.

I have no problem with companion breeds and not really any problem with wolfdog breeds. I'm just... skeptical based on a repeating history with Utonagans, Tamaskans, Northern Inuits, etc. It seems very difficult to actually make a wolf without a wolf without adding in some wolf OR an actual wolfdog breed. Pretty much all the previous attempts were too good to be true. Without strict and transparent record keeping available, I'll be a skeptic.

I do think the health testing and temperament testing is fabulous. I just would like more transparency about the foundation stock.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

I'd own one, pretty "black wolf" dogs with an excellent family temperament. Talk about a win.

 

[Pops2]

And I did find this quote:



So it really doesn't sound like there was any true record keeping at all. Just whatever dog fit the bill.

Then this was said later on down the page:



I love how colors were main focuses on certain breeds/types.

that's just a silly complaint, even w/ breeding for work color is a selection factor. white to make the dogo more visible in the bush, black/brindle to make lurchers less visible at night, or merle to differentiate my friends stags from everyone elses.

 

[Kootenay]

Lyzelle keeps bringing up feeding into a bad market. Actually the breed founder is EXTREMELY picky about who gets her puppies, and preference goes to homes that will do a lot of training and get titles to prove it.

 

[SaraB]

Lyzelle keeps bringing up feeding into a bad market. Actually the breed founder is EXTREMELY picky about who gets her puppies, and preference goes to homes that will do a lot of training and get titles to prove it.

Not only that but I would much rather have people go out to buy a dog that looks like a wolf than an actual wolf hybrid.

 

[Xandra]

Yes, not to mention that not all people who are someone ignorant of dogs are bad owners. My guess is that even the many people who are basically just attracted to the look will superficially appreciate health and temperament testing when the benefits are explained to them by the breeder. Often that is how things go. Buyer sees a dog they like, the breeder goes through the selling points (parents are champions, parents are "traditional" and weigh 180 lbs, etc), the buyer eats it up and will happily parrot it back to you. Again these people might love their dog and take great care of it, so it would be good if they were happily telling people about how their dog is from health tested parents instead.

Of course, that is assuming the breeder is loosey goosey about where these dogs go, sounds like that may not be the case anyways.

 

[Kootenay]

Of course, that is assuming the breeder is loosey goosey about where these dogs go, sounds like that may not be the case anyways.

Definitely not the case!

 

[Lyzelle]

Lyzelle keeps bringing up feeding into a bad market. Actually the breed founder is EXTREMELY picky about who gets her puppies, and preference goes to homes that will do a lot of training and get titles to prove it.

And yet several breeders ended up with her dogs? And are crossing them with wolf hybrids?