AAHA and AMVA's position on cropping, docking and dewclaw removal

Doberluv

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#23
Comfort level. Hmmmm. I wish someone would think about the comfort level of Pit bulls/fighting dogs, or the comfort level of the millions upon millions of abused dogs; starved, chained up with no food/water, beaten, frightened, left out in the freezing cold. The list goes on and on. Why don't people get their priorities straight as to what is really affecting dogs? The effort and success at stopping animal abuse is less than the effort and energy put into this crop, dock and dew claw stuff. The consequences abusers face are far too lenient. Where is everyone? The efficiency of stopping abuse is pathetic. To mention crop/dock/dew claws in the same breath as mistreatment of animals is ludicrous!!!
 
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#24
that aren't tech. necessary....lump removals...and such...same difference.


THAT IS WHAT WAS SAID.....AREN'T TECH NECESSARY...does that include cancer....that is up to the person deciding...if the lump being removed risks the life of the dog, that is a call the OWNER SHOULD MAKE...

What i am talking about is having SKIN TAGS or fatty deposits removed...cuz honestly in the long run, they aren't TECHNICALLY NECESSARY...they are for the most part COSMETIC...


WHY are we focusing on C/D and even dews when there are SO MANY DIFFERENT THINGS...

and since when does c/d ONLY mean to LOOK like breed standard? Why isn't it so that a JRT with a tail doesn't injure itself, or a dog that does SAR doesn't tear its dew off or break its tail....it isn't JUST to look pretty...

SIGH...

Hoping i said it in anger....no....frustration yes, but mostly i am tired of people vilifying those of us that CHOOSE to do these procedures but those that choose to have fatty tumors, or skin tags removed, or have their pet s/n are just "doing what is right".
Who draws that line? And where can we erase and redraw...

This will only lead to more CL posting like was posted last week or so, people offering HOME CROP JOBS...yeah that solves the problem...

S
 

Doberdogs

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#25
Comfort level. Hmmmm. I wish someone would think about the comfort level of Pit bulls/fighting dogs, or the comfort level of the millions upon millions of abused dogs; starved, chained up with no food/water, beaten, frightened, left out in the freezing cold. The list goes on and on. Why don't people get their priorities straight as to what is really affecting dogs? The effort and success at stopping animal abuse is less than the effort and energy put into this crop, dock and dew claw stuff. The consequences abusers face are far too lenient. Where is everyone? The efficiency of stopping abuse is pathetic. To mention crop/dock/dew claws in the same breath as mistreatment of animals is ludicrous!!!
This is a good post.
 

Fran101

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#27
My vet WILL NOT crop, but will dock. not because some vet association tells him to, but because he ADMITS he is not good at cropping and isnt good at shaping the ear, ect.. he does offer owners that would like to crop a list of vets in the area that ARE very good at it (plus sample pictures of dogs that have been cropped there)
I love my vet, not because hes perfect but because hes honest.

As for this issue, i dont agree with it. Its the owners choice wether to crop, dock or not. and responsible owners should be given the choice

Ive never seen a dog in pain from an ears crop or dock. Other than the few that have come into the shelter where the owners have NOT taken care of the ears and thus they are taped, infected, swollen and very painful
 

sillysally

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#28
that aren't tech. necessary....lump removals...and such...same difference.


THAT IS WHAT WAS SAID.....AREN'T TECH NECESSARY...does that include cancer....that is up to the person deciding...if the lump being removed risks the life of the dog, that is a call the OWNER SHOULD MAKE...

What i am talking about is having SKIN TAGS or fatty deposits removed...cuz honestly in the long run, they aren't TECHNICALLY NECESSARY...they are for the most part COSMETIC...


WHY are we focusing on C/D and even dews when there are SO MANY DIFFERENT THINGS...

and since when does c/d ONLY mean to LOOK like breed standard? Why isn't it so that a JRT with a tail doesn't injure itself, or a dog that does SAR doesn't tear its dew off or break its tail....it isn't JUST to look pretty...

SIGH...

Hoping i said it in anger....no....frustration yes, but mostly i am tired of people vilifying those of us that CHOOSE to do these procedures but those that choose to have fatty tumors, or skin tags removed, or have their pet s/n are just "doing what is right".
Who draws that line? And where can we erase and redraw...

This will only lead to more CL posting like was posted last week or so, people offering HOME CROP JOBS...yeah that solves the problem...

S
Actually, I do think that anyone doing ANYTHING surgical to their animal that is PURELY for cosmetic reasons should think long and hard about what they are going to put their dog through--that is just good pet ownership, IMHO.

Although I think that the same can be said for altering (the think long and hard part) I do not believe, no matter how many hardcore pro-cropping/docking people scream it from the roof tops, that the two types of surgeries can be compared for a number of reasons.

I don't think that there should be a law against crop and dock, and I don't think that people who crop/dock should be vilified, but I also don't think that it is the AVMA's job to be bowing to the whims and interests of the AKC and breed clubs.
 

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#29
To mention crop/dock/dew claws in the same breath as mistreatment of animals is ludicrous!!!
It wasn't.

The revised AVMA policy states: "The AVMA opposes ear cropping and tail docking of dogs when done solely for cosmetic purposes. The AVMA encourages the elimination of ear cropping and tail docking from breed standards."
 

LauraLeigh

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#31
See I personally also hate the idea of Tails and Dews *having* to be done at a vet.... so drag newborn pups out in sub 0 Canadian winter, stress the hec outta Mom and Pups (Just noticed I had said Dad..... LOL), and have a vet do a job often no better and sometimes worse than what an experienced breeder can do.... I have never had a problem in all the pups I have done for myself and fellow breeders, never had a sick pup or stressed out Pup/Mom, never had an infected tail or dew... However I have breeder friends who have gone through almost all of these issues with pups done at a vet clinic...

On top of that, if you do use a vet, you'd better darn well stay and watch if you use a vet to be sure the dock is done where you want it, for JRTs you want some length for a "handle" and I have seen very nice dogs cropped to short... One was a gorgeous bitch belonging to one of the top breeders in North America! The pups had been marked where the dock was to happen and yet they were docked waaaay shorter and this very, very nice Bitch ended up looking unbalanced.
 
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Dekka

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#32
So is it OK for them to bow to the whims and interests of the AR agenda?
:hail: It should be left up the vet to choose their stance.

LL why not? I prefer to take mine to the vets. No one looks particularly stressed or upset. I like the bitch to get a bit of a check up at that time anyway. I am sure I could do it.. I am not squeemish in the least and can give needles and stitch/staple when needed. The vets dock where I say.. so Dekka's litter with too short a tails is MY fault not the vets. (The next litter was great)
 

sillysally

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#33
So is it OK for them to bow to the whims and interests of the AR agenda?
Or perhaps, here's an idea----they think for themselves and bow to what they believe is right? But that couldn't be true, because we all really know the the goal of all veterinarians is to end pet ownership, liberate animals, thus liberating themselves right out of business, right? Because if there is one thing that veterinarians hate and want to put an end to, boy, it's the livelihood they've invested so much into........

The whole world is not black and white, there is some gray in there somewhere. I'm not sure why every time someone doesn't agree 150% with crop/dock they are somehow just tools of the Animal Rights movement or over-emotional. Seriously.
 

LauraLeigh

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#34
:hail: It should be left up the vet to choose their stance.

LL why not? I prefer to take mine to the vets. No one looks particularly stressed or upset. I like the bitch to get a bit of a check up at that time anyway. I am sure I could do it.. I am not squeemish in the least and can give needles and stitch/staple when needed. The vets dock where I say.. so Dekka's litter with too short a tails is MY fault not the vets. (The next litter was great)
I just see no reason to take a bitch and pups out so soon after whelping, unless it's an emergency, just a Preference and the way I was taught by those who mentored me. And for the reasons I mentioned as well... I am not saying don't go to a vet, just that I would hate to see that be the only option as many, many breeders are totally capable of docking and doing dews themselves. I am not saying vets are a bad option for all, just not the only one... and to be sure they dock where you say:D
 

corgipower

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#35
Or perhaps, here's an idea----they think for themselves and bow to what they believe is right? But that couldn't be true, because we all really know the the goal of all veterinarians is to end pet ownership, liberate animals, thus liberating themselves right out of business, right? Because if there is one thing that veterinarians hate and want to put an end to, boy, it's the livelihood they've invested so much into........
The ARists have a lot of money at their disposal to be able to give generously to the AVMA. In return they would be able to influence the AVMA's position statements.

Much the same way that Hill's gives generously so that the vets are urged to sell Science Diet.
 

Dekka

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#36
Vets are people too. I have met vets who think PETA has animal's best interest at heart and that the HSUS is nice.

Just a shocker but the person who writes Fuglyhorseoftheday is a fan of the HSUS. She just won't/can't believe they are as bad as all that.

And ARistas don't have to totally convert people. They just have to convince enough people of a few things. Docking is bad, pitbulls are evil, mandatory s/n laws will help pets.... I have met vets and vet students who believe some crazy things.. They just people after all.

But why can't they be left to make up their own minds and not be pressured by governing bodies?
 

sillysally

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#37
The ARists have a lot of money at their disposal to be able to give generously to the AVMA. In return they would be able to influence the AVMA's position statements.

Much the same way that Hill's gives generously so that the vets are urged to sell Science Diet.
IDK, I'm one of those horrible people that doesn't think that it's necessarily a bad thing that vets sell Science Diet. It's better than what most people are feeding their dogs and many people are unwilling or unable to feed super-premiums. I fed Jack Hill's j/d after he had his surgery until Io found what i felt was a better option.

Out of curiosity, do you have any links/sources/reports/scanned info, etc that you could post showing where funds come from, how they are used, etc from the AVMA? I think that would be interesting to see.
 

Dekka

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#38
Hills science diet (non prescription) isn't really any better than dog chow or ol'roy not sure how its a good thing its being pushed by a health care provider.

That would be like my dr pushing mac n cheese and wieners.....
 

sillysally

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#39
Vets are people too. I have met vets who think PETA has animal's best interest at heart and that the HSUS is nice.

Just a shocker but the person who writes Fuglyhorseoftheday is a fan of the HSUS. She just won't/can't believe they are as bad as all that.

And ARistas don't have to totally convert people. They just have to convince enough people of a few things. Docking is bad, pitbulls are evil, mandatory s/n laws will help pets.... I have met vets and vet students who believe some crazy things.. They just people after all.

But why can't they be left to make up their own minds and not be pressured by governing bodies?
I don't know if the Fugly woman is a good example of anything. IMHO, there is something seriously wrong with someone who spends all of their free time tearing down people whose beliefs and ideas do not line up with hers. She needs some professional help, as do the minions who follow her to YouTube and post hateful things.

The thing is that vets are deciding, in seemingly large numbers, that they do not want to do the procedures on their own. This statement has been in place for many years, it was just recently revised. From the searching I have been doing, it seems that most vets (the AVMA is run by vets for vets) seem to be in favor of the position. The only reoccurring theme that I see is a concern that if vets do not so them, then owners will find a non-professional, which I agree is a very *big* concern.

And if you want to talk about governing bodies pressure people, lets talk about the breed organizations that oversee traditionally cropped and docked breeds. The choice of whether or not these procedures are done is largely taken away from the dog owner if they want a decent breeder. I have heard people talk about how they would not C/D their dogs but they have no choice if they want to be able to compete. That is no different than what the AVMA is doing--applying pressure to the professionals it represents in order as a means to an end--the ends are just different.
 

sillysally

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#40
Hills science diet (non prescription) isn't really any better than dog chow or ol'roy not sure how its a good thing its being pushed by a health care provider.

That would be like my dr pushing mac n cheese and wieners.....
Meh. I think that's debatable. Different foods work for different dogs. There are dogs that do horribly on very good foods. Vets can sell whatever they wish as far as I'm concerned.
 

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