A Preemptive Strike

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tessa_s212

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#21
musictech said:
Ok why are you not telling the other people here the same thing? Gallien Jacks just had a litter, how come your not complaining to him?
Are you really that ignorant? It is not about pure breed or mixed... It is about RESPONSIBLE BREEDING. Give me ten examples of responsible mixed breed breeders. I bet that will be hard.

Are you even considering health checking? What about titles? Has your dog earned any agility, obedience, CGC, TDI, or any other sort of title to be proven breeding "worthy"?

Will you have a puppy contract? Will you scan your buyers? Will the puppies be spayed and neutered, or have a spay/nueter contract? (Even pure bred puppies that are not breeding quality are sold on these!) What if one of your puppies ended up in a kill shelter? Would you take it back? Are you prepared for emergencies that can happen when giving birth? What if the bitch dies? What if one of the puppies becomes very ill only days after you sell it? What will you do?

Breeding dogs is very serious. And if you breed this dog(note: I said 'dog', not 'mixed breed') without enforcing spay/nueter contracts YOU WILL be only adding to the overpopulation of dogs in kill shelters. And then YOU, in fact, will be part of the PROBLEM.
 
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#22
musictech said:
Ok why are you not telling the other people here the same thing? Gallien Jacks just had a litter, how come your not complaining to him? Because he has a purebred?
First i am a she not a he, and secondly breeding is not just about pure or cross, its about titles and health and temperment and breeding to better the breed not just because you want some puppys around or you want to make money or because you think your dog is cute and want one just like him. When breeding you take a look at the generation, you will know what each dog was like there health and temperment are a majior factor in breeding so that whover you sell the pups too know that you have done everything to ensure they own a healthy tempermently sound dog that isnt going to cause them heart ake. if the owner of the bitch has any sence they wont want to breed.

Sent marking doesnt just happen because they live with another dog, do you not realise how sensitive a dogs nose is? it will mark its territory even if another dog has walked past its house.

In future do not bring people into you converstaion when you know nothing about them!
 
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musictech

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#23
I really didn't intend this to become an shouting match, I was just looking for help on this issue because I know its coming. Not everyones ethical views on the do's and dont's of dog breeding.

However, let me answer some questions.

tessa_s212 said:
It is not about pure breed or mixed... It is about RESPONSIBLE BREEDING. Give me ten examples of responsible mixed breed breeders. I bet that will be hard.
Well that depends, do you want past or present.

If you want present, then your right, I have no idea of any. Except for perhaps the breeders I got my dog from. They normally breed purebred pomeranians and chiuauas, this was just one of those mixes that are becoming popular.

If you want past, that is easy. Just pick any 10 purebreds and look back at their originator.

tessa_s212 said:
Are you even considering health checking? What about titles? Has your dog earned any agility, obedience, CGC, TDI, or any other sort of title to be proven breeding "worthy"?
The health checking is not a problem. Have a brother that is a vet that runs his own clinic and kenel, so all vet visits are free. As for the certifications, as I have just started looking into it, I am not familiar with many. However, from the ones you listed I know that I would most likely not be able to get CGC, as it is an AKC certification and mixes aren't recognized by the AKC. As for the others, I don't know. I don't think agility or obedience will be a problem, he has been able to sit, laydown, and fetch since he was 3 months and I really haven't started any formal training for him yet, I like to wait until six months. Agility, I am not sure what that entails exactly to be certified in that, I would have to look that one up. I do know that at 4 months and about 8 inches tall, he can jump over a 30 inch baby gate with ease, and can jump, grab on with his feet, and climb over a 40 inch one. Which is another issue entirely =).

tessa_s212 said:
Will you have a puppy contract? Will you scan your buyers? Will the puppies be spayed and neutered, or have a spay/nueter contract? (Even pure bred puppies that are not breeding quality are sold on these!) What if one of your puppies ended up in a kill shelter? Would you take it back? Are you prepared for emergencies that can happen when giving birth? What if the bitch dies? What if one of the puppies becomes very ill only days after you sell it? What will you do?
Again, things I haven't decided upon as I haven't decided to breed the dog yet. However, in the past, the puppies\kittens I have had and have given away. I have given them to people I know or checked out myself (at the very least go to their house and see how they live). I have taken back any that the owners didn't want, even months later (only twice when this actually happened), and I have always told the new owner to call me or bring them back if there are any problems. As most of you are aware, that if the new owner doesn't want to keep you informed of the dog/kittens progress, you cant do anything about it. So I can't say with 100% certainty that no dog/cat I have ever given away has not gone to a shelter, or been abandoned. Then again, I wouldn't guess that anyone would be able to. As for the health related things, I don't foresee a problem, as I have access to free vet and kenel service.

tessa_s212 said:
Breeding dogs is very serious. And if you breed this dog(note: I said 'dog', not 'mixed breed') without enforcing spay/nueter contracts YOU WILL be only adding to the overpopulation of dogs in kill shelters. And then YOU, in fact, will be part of the PROBLEM.
As I stated above, I haven't worked everything out. I have just started looking into it. The pup is a good year or so away from the time that I would consider him ready to breed, and I haven't even started looking for him a mate. When I feel I have really looked into it well enough is when I will decide. I am just giving myself the option to do so right now. I very well may go back and change my mind.



Gallien Jacks said:
First i am a she not a he
Sorry about that, took a guess. Just guessed wrong.

Gallien Jacks said:
secondly breeding is not just about pure or cross, its about titles and health and temperment and breeding to better the breed not just because you want some puppys around or you want to make money or because you think your dog is cute and want one just like him. When breeding you take a look at the generation, you will know what each dog was like there health and temperment are a majior factor in breeding so that whover you sell the pups too know that you have done everything to ensure they own a healthy tempermently sound dog that isnt going to cause them heart ake.
I have answered most of these questions in the above portion. With the exception of knowing the breed. I looked for this mix in particular, because I had already had experience with one (another familiy member has a 3 year old Chimarian). What I have experienced of the dog, they are very smart, very loving dogs. Perfect for house dogs. Mine will even get up in the middle of the night, go to the bathroom on his own, and then come back to bed without bothering me or my wife. Also, I didn't base my decision solely off of him. There are several websites that talk about specific mixes. As I stated above, he seems to be one of the more popular mixes, with the poodle mixes and yorkie mixes a bit higher on the list.


Gallien Jacks said:
Sent marking doesnt just happen because they live with another dog, do you not realise how sensitive a dogs nose is? it will mark its territory even if another dog has walked past its house.
I realize completely. Dogs have been known to smell their owners from several miles away. I was just looking into a way to discourage this behavior.



Gallien Jacks said:
In future do not bring people into you converstaion when you know nothing about them!
Actually you brought yourself into this conversation. You were just the only other person in the thread who I knew recently had a litter of puppies, your signature shows that.


Now from the two or three helpful posts in this thread, I gather it is impossible to prevent this behavior, and that no one on this board has every suceeded in preventing a non neutered male from marking inside their house. Is that correct?
 

Boxer*Mom

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#24
so is the dog housebroken already adn you're just afraid he will hike on your furniture? if that ever happens tell him no firmly and that is bad behavior, take him outside and praise him excessively when he does it outside. clean up the pee completely with something that has odors in it dogs don't like that will keep him from wanting to return to the area. woolite makes a clean up spray like that and their are other things like apple bitter.

what everyone is trying to get across to you is that designer breeding is not a cool thing to most of us. especially when there are no health certificates on the previous generations or the sire and dam to have the litter. preferably we think going to an animal shelter or rescue is the best option because those dogs need homes and will be spayed/neutered before leaving.
 
M

musictech

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#25
Boxer*Mom said:
so is the dog housebroken already adn you're just afraid he will hike on your furniture? if that ever happens tell him no firmly and that is bad behavior, take him outside and praise him excessively when he does it outside. clean up the pee completely with something that has odors in it dogs don't like that will keep him from wanting to return to the area. woolite makes a clean up spray like that and their are other things like apple bitter.
Yeah he is house trained. So basically just reenforcement just like when he was going through potty training?
 

Boxer*Mom

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#26
yes, and if there are accidents clean it up with the deterrents (sp?). i have an intact male and he has never hiked on my things. an accident is to be expected since he's still young and sometimes they can't help it-like if they are sick, or they've just been in too long.
 

Fran27

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#27
musictech said:
If you want present, then your right, I have no idea of any. Except for perhaps the breeders I got my dog from. They normally breed purebred pomeranians and chiuauas, this was just one of those mixes that are becoming popular.
And you call that responsible breeding? No offense, but those breeders are just in for the money then. No ethical breeder would breed two dogs of different breeds because the mix is 'becoming popular', if only because there are 7 million mutts who are euthanized every year because too many people thought it would be fun to breed more mutts.

If you want past, that is easy. Just pick any 10 purebreds and look back at their originator.
Hah! People use this argument all the time to justify breeding mutts. Unfortunately, it's a very bad one. All breeds were created for a purpose, by people who knew what they were doing, what traits they wanted to reproduce in the puppies etc. Basically, they had a clue, and certainly didn't breed mutts just because they would be cute, or even worse, they are popular.


The health checking is not a problem. Have a brother that is a vet that runs his own clinic and kenel, so all vet visits are free.
Again, that's just the backyard breeder definition of health checking. The truth is, it takes much more than just a vet check to see if a dog is good breeding quality. Eyes, hips must be checked, as well as whatever other genetical problems are common in a breed (back, heart etc). Breeders who breed their dogs without all this testing are just adding more unhealthy puppies to the millions that are already out there. Puppies that end up being unable to walk, having heart problems etc etc, just because the breeders were after a quick buck. And the worst part is that very often the new owners of the puppies will just find it cute to breed their dog too, adding even more genetically poor puppies to the world. That's why it's just much better not to breed a dog that isn't breeding quality in the first place.



I have answered most of these questions in the above portion. With the exception of knowing the breed. I looked for this mix in particular, because I had already had experience with one (another familiy member has a 3 year old Chimarian). What I have experienced of the dog, they are very smart, very loving dogs. Perfect for house dogs. Mine will even get up in the middle of the night, go to the bathroom on his own, and then come back to bed without bothering me or my wife. Also, I didn't base my decision solely off of him. There are several websites that talk about specific mixes. As I stated above, he seems to be one of the more popular mixes, with the poodle mixes and yorkie mixes a bit higher on the list.
The reason they are not recognized breeds is because they're just not different than the purebreed dogs. Poodles, yorkies, chihuhuas and poms are all very nice house dogs that are smart and loving (when bred properly). So there is no point in breeding any mix, when you can find the same thing from a purepred dog.

The only reason those mixes got popular is because people are, well, ignorant and misinformed. And because puppy mills and breeders are smart. They breed mixes, give them a name that can pass them for a breed, tell lies about them (the best one being that all the poodle mixes don't shed), and show them as a novelty, to make people buy them. And people, knowing no better, buy them. Most people have no clue that they are not a breed, and that they just basically spent $800 for a mutt (sometimes much more). Basically, the scheme of puppy mills and backyard breeders worked well, because they're making lots of money, but that has NOTHING to do with responsible breeding.

A long time ago, people were breeding dogs with a goal, often to make the best working dogs. That's what good breeders still try to do today, to maintain the breed as best as possible, choosing the best parents for the puppies to stay as close to the standard as possible and to have no genetical problems. These are the people who should breed, not the ones who just put any male or female together then sell the puppies for $800 (which is what lots of breeders and puppy mills are doing). That, plus when millions of dogs have no home, all the reasons to breed a non breed quality dog are just selfish ones, whether they are mutts or not honestly.


Now, for your original question, I can't help. Both my boys were neutered by 6 months and have never marked.
 
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musictech

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#28
Fran27

Just a quick response. First off, I am not really in this for the money. I was thinking more hobby. I would gather the breeders I got my dog from are doing it for the same reason. Otherwise they would produce more than 2 litters a year. As for purebred history, I am not sure where you get your information from but from just a quick glance, many of the purebreds today are the result of just random mating. Especially many of the small Terriers. Others were breed purposefully, but by people that had less genetics knowledge, than a 8th grade science class. As for health concerns, I am not sure what health services a breeder would be able to provide that someone with a PhD in Vetenary Medicine couldn't. Are there any? Finally, as I stated above several times, I am not sure if I am actually going to breed this dog, and if I do, it will not be at the level that would make a major impact in the pet population.

I respect all of the point of views given, as well as the help. However, the final decision on what I want to do is mine, and if you want to help me with issues that is fine. If you don't, well that is fine too. So don't bother lecturing me on the virtues of responsible pet breeding, because in the end, I will make whatever decision I deem appropriate.
 

Fran27

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#29
It's because so many 'hobby' breeders are so convinced that at their level they are not having an impact that so many of them are in need of homes. Have you checked www.petfinder.com lately? If you want to make it a hobby, at least take the time to do it properly, by learning about a breed and work on breeding healthy puppies that at least confirm to a standard. Or choose a hobby that won't bring more dogs to the shelters.

Oh nevermind, you bred cats too, I'm probably just wasting my time with people like you who are just too selfish to realize that they are making matters worse for the dog and cat surpopulation, because what THEY want to do is just so much more important :mad:
 
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#30
I dont think that you will ever think breeding mutts is wrong, you dont understnad what is involved, yes I brought myself into this thread as a responsiable breeder who wanted to help. All with all things there are some exceptions, but I have never known a dog that hasnt marked his home from time to time
 
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musictech

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#31
Fran27 said:
It's because so many 'hobby' breeders are so convinced that at their level they are not having an impact that so many of them are in need of homes.
You know the same argument can be used for people who want to have kids. You going to go after them next?

Fran27 said:
If you want to make it a hobby, at least take the time to do it properly, by learning about a breed and work on breeding healthy puppies that at least confirm to a standard. Or choose a hobby that won't bring more dogs to the shelters.
I have picked a breed, and I just happen to have one of them already. As for learning to do it right, that is what I am doing now. Asking questions, doing research, so if I decide I do not want to do it, I still have time to get my pup fixed.

Fran27 said:
Oh nevermind, you bred cats too, I'm probably just wasting my time with people like you who are just too selfish to realize that they are making matters worse for the dog and cat surpopulation, because what THEY want to do is just so much more important :mad:
You know, this one made me almost fall out of my chair, for laughing so hard. I don't know if a 1 or 2 litters during my childhood would constitute being a breeder, but hey that means I have 30 years experience as a breeder =).


Gallien Jacks said:
I dont think that you will ever think breeding mutts is wrong
Its just as wrong as breeding Jack Russell Terriers

Gallien Jacks said:
you dont understand what is involved
No I don't but I will be sure I do before I start.

Gallien Jacks said:
yes I brought myself into this thread as a responsiable breeder who wanted to help.
And you do. Just stop being so judgemental. I sure most do not like to be attacked for asking a simple question. I can understand voicing your concerns, but badgering someone over and over is just lunacy. I can guarantee you one thing, regardless if I do or do not breed my pup, there will be dogs in shelters. Not because of irresponsible breeding, because there are people out there that can't take responsibility for their own actions. That is why there is abortion clinics out there too.

However, I will have to say. You girls did give me a good laugh this morning and I thank you for that.
 

Fran27

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#32
musictech said:
You know the same argument can be used for people who want to have kids. You going to go after them next?
Wow, what a really nice thing to post to someone who's been trying to have a baby for 3 years and has been through 3 infertility treatments that failed... And I guess the funny thing is that I'm actually in the process of adopting. But obviously you have no clue what you're talking about, nor of the problems that often come with kids who have spent most of the lives in foster homes... That, and the comparison is just appalling, it's not like people are making babies for the fun of it and are not keeping them. Do you even think before you give a retarded argument???



I have picked a breed, and I just happen to have one of them already. As for learning to do it right, that is what I am doing now. Asking questions, doing research, so if I decide I do not want to do it, I still have time to get my pup fixed.
Well you're too stubborn to listen to advice and consider the consequences of your actions obviously. As we told you, by breeding a mutt there is just nothing you can do right. And mutts are not a breed except in your mind.



You know, this one made me almost fall out of my chair, for laughing so hard. I don't know if a 1 or 2 litters during my childhood would constitute being a breeder, but hey that means I have 30 years experience as a breeder =).
I don't remember mentionning that you were a breeder. I said you bred cats, and for all I know 3 of them are now in shelters looking for a home, just because of your irresponsibility.


Its just as wrong as breeding Jack Russell Terriers
Don't you know how to read or are you just stupid? There is nothing wrong about breeding Jack Russel Terriers when it's done to improve the breed, like Gallen Jacks did. What breed are you going to improve by breeding yours?


I can guarantee you one thing, regardless if I do or do not breed my pup, there will be dogs in shelters. Not because of irresponsible breeding, because there are people out there that can't take responsibility for their own actions. That is why there is abortion clinics out there too.
But you might add more. Yes, there are irresponsible people out there, but willingly breeding more mutts to the world when there are already too many out there is just as irresponsible. It's because of people like you that so many are in shelters today.

Do you leave your trash out in the park also because other people are going to do it anyway? I'm appaled at how selfish and irresponsible people are nowadays.
 
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musictech

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#33
Fran,

Why do you bother? I mean your ranting and raving isn't going to change the fact that its my decision to make, not yours. There is no difference between what I am thinking about doing and what was done with jack russels, golden retrievers, or many other dogs out there. My dog is a result of a purebred mix. Just like the first Golden Retiever. I can trace his parentage back a couple generations. I have had experience with another one of his breed, and know the health concerns related to him. Also, I have direct access to a vet at any time, for advice as well as care. Finally, I am researching it now, instead of doing it first and asking questions later.

Now explain to me how I am being irresponsible?
 
M

musictech

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#35
Fran,

If your so concerned about the pet population. Start shipping homeless pets to Asia. I hear dog is a real delicacy over there. You can fix two problems at once, hunger and pet overpopulation.

=)
 

taratippy

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#36
So if you know some 3 generations you should already know what health checks are required for both sets of parents - presumably these have been done on your little guys parents?

ie for poms Patent ductus arteriosus

and chi's Patellar luxation

are the most common

one other question for those posting here - do you believe that all dogs should be shown and some sort of champions before even being considered for breeding? This is just of interest to me.
 
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musictech

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#37
I would assume the parents have been checked, as the are used for regular breeding as well. Also, since my pup was checked for Patella luxation before I picked him up, I would assume they would do that on the parents as well.

It is something I would definitely follow up on, before I made my final decision.
 

taratippy

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#38
How old was you pup when you picked him up? Patellar luxation, I believe cannot be checked for before 6 months.
 
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musictech

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#39
He was 2 months old. The breeder said it was common practice for her to have all her puppies checked for it, before they left the fold.
 

taratippy

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#40
but surely thats pointless as it doesnt show up until at least 6 months. Did you not request to see the paperwork for the parents?
 

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