Prong collars

Except that a dog wears a head halter on its face. So testing it on your arm isn't really fair IMO. I see a lot of dogs really shut down in a head halter or spend a lot of time rubbing their face in the grass, rubbing the nose strap with their paw, etc. I just can't believe that those individual dogs don't find it aversive and uncomfortable.

Don't get me wrong, I see plenty of dogs do great in head halters. But for many dogs they are just as aversive as a prong would be on another dog. And vice versa.

Except that a dog wears a head halter on its face. So testing it on your arm isn't really fair IMO. I see a lot of dogs really shut down in a head halter or spend a lot of time rubbing their face in the grass, rubbing the nose strap with their paw, etc. I just can't believe that those individual dogs don't find it aversive and uncomfortable.

Don't get me wrong, I see plenty of dogs do great in head halters. But for many dogs they are just as aversive as a prong would be on another dog. And vice versa.

E: I wrote out a story about when I thought a prong might be best used, but I think I've thought better of it. Public forums and all that.

This. I have a head halter for Abrams purely for a public relations reason: when he's being a reactive idiot upon first leaving the car, he's less "scary" on a head halter than on a prong to people who are in thr area. He HATES it. Not much shuts him down, but he despises that head halter. And, honestly, it makes sense for him. He's less sensitive around his neck (thick, loose skin, I used to use his scruff as a hand hold when I needed him to move and he wouldn't comply as he doesn't wear a collar in the house/yard, etc.) but his muzzle is very sensitive. I can get him to back away from me purely by laying a finger at the bridge of his muzzle and applying light pressure. Holding his muzzle shut or grabbing around his muzzle to hold his head still is *extremely* aversive to him to the point he will flail and panic if it goes on for more than a few seconds, especially if he is worked up about something. (He could care less about being held under the chin, or by the head itself.)

A head halter, for him, is 10x more aversive than a prong. And I'm sure he is not the only dog where that is the case.

This is a dog, who if he wants to, could probably drag me. He has good leash manners, but I know there will be a time where something causes him to pull because I cannot control the environment. And when he does, I need to be able to effectively stop that from happening before he or I (or what he's reacting to) gets hurt. A prong is my safety net, and he's perfectly happy to wear it. A head halter? Not so much.

I'm not saying thay head halters are horrible, evil things. They aren't. But neither are prongs. I got into an argument with my friend last night (very briefly before we both said "this is dumb, let's not fight") because she was adamant that a prong was cruel and abusive because the prongs "dig in to their neck" and "cause unbelieveable pain". Um. No. Not at all. We ended our discussion with her saying, "Well, Abrams is just a masochist." That is probably true.

So a head halter, by definition, is +P. A head halter is added (+) to decrease the behavior (P) of pulling.

In reaponse to someone saying they had never heard of a head halter being used as "punishment", I think it's a good idea to take a look at what "punishment" means. A punishment (P) is something that is either added (+) or taken away (-) to decrease a behavior.

So a head halter, by definition, is +P. A head halter is added (+) to decrease the behavior (P) of pulling.

[I think. Correct me if I'm wrong.]

So is a prong. True, the mechanisms in which they work are different, but it is still a positive punishment in technical terms.

I'm too old for these debates

a couple points, the dog decides what he doesn't like and what he does. The trainer doesn't get to decide. So there's that.

If you can't tell what you're doing, be prepared to suffer the consequences.

Just because you can't do something someone else can do, doesn't mean it can't be done or is "wrong"

your relationship can be made stronger or weaker from all sorts of ways of training. It is not dependent on the presence or absence of a particular method or tool.

There are a thousand ways to Rome.

Have fun being with your dog.

As an example, I recently had a training client with a dog aggressive dog. Has a history of attacking other dogs. The woman is in her 50's and the dog was 15 month old, 80lb West German Showline GSD. The dog came to me with LAT training and a Halti from the previous trainer of 1 year, and was recommended to me for my experience working with the breed..../

/....This woman needs to be able to, at the very least, hold the dog safely on leash. Introduce the prong collar. Another dog is introduced at a distance within the dogs reaction threshold. As the dog approaches, she is corrected and removed from the situation for showing any excitable energy. One correction, walk away and done. If this is timed correctly and rewarded appropriately for the dog either redirecting attention or avoiding engaging in any response toward the other dog, then she is rewarded. This dog should go forward to show avoidance behavior toward the other dog. No "freaking out", no reaction, just avoidance because they have an understanding that their excited and reacting state of mind results in a correction. When they display this avoidance, the reward comes, and the dog learns that the avoidance of that behavior is what produces that reward. All at the same time, the dog will self correct for lunging and will be much less capable of knocking the owner to the ground.

I was very anti prong until I finally caved and used one with Juno for her reactivity. It made walks enjoyable for us. Once I saw the instant improvement and that a flick of the pinky was all that was needed as a correction... I became a pretty big fan of them as tools.

I agree with Alexis I use one on my dog aggressive Amstaff and wish I had brought it out sooner. I did everything that the lady in her example did but for me I also had spent tons of time training and knew it would take many more months to see more progress. The prong keeps me sane and keeps him under control. It also keeps other dogs safe.

When used on a dog with reactivity, I feel like a prong collar INCREASES reactivity in most instances, and create more tension, anxiety, and even aggression towards whatever the dog is reacting to. If your dog dislikes other dogs, sees another dog with a prong collar on, and is pinched or poked in even a minimally painful or discomforting way, they're going to be like "well when I see another dog this s*** happens so I better FREAK OUT".

I originally felt super guilty about using a prong. No joke, when I first got it I would put a bandana over it, and then had my friend make a cover for it - I felt like people would judge if they saw my dog wearing a prong and, based on some responses in this thread, I guess that wasn't even my irrational social anxiety talking. I just felt bad about it and like I could be doing better, but seriously at some point something had to give. I wasn't making progress and I wasn't enjoying walking my dog.

I eventually stopped caring. I think it's sad that anyone has to feel bad about using one. I would like to teach leash walking without one, but I'll always have it in my toolbox and in the future wouldn't hesitate so much about using one.

I originally felt super guilty about using a prong. No joke, when I first got it I would put a bandana over it, and then had my friend make a cover for it - I felt like people would judge if they saw my dog wearing a prong and, based on some responses in this thread, I guess that wasn't even my irrational social anxiety talking. I just felt bad about it and like I could be doing better, but seriously at some point something had to give. I wasn't making progress and I wasn't enjoying walking my dog.

I eventually stopped caring. I think it's sad that anyone has to feel bad about using one. I would like to teach leash walking without one, but I'll always have it in my toolbox and in the future wouldn't hesitate so much about using one.

I think the best thing I ever did was stop trying to label what type of trainer I am.

I see it in all the camps of dog trainers and I sincerely believe if everyone worried a lot less about what type of trainer they are, if the tools or methods they use fall into that category or not and more about just training the dog in front of them to the best of their ability and to enjoy doing it we would see a whole lot less fighting and worry about things.

Seems to me when trainers start naming their methodology it and what that does or does not encompass and what you can or can not do while calling yourself that it takes a turn towards crazy town.