Help! Nothing fits.

As a frequent reader, but not poster, here goes nothin'. I know some of you are on other dog forums and may have seen me post there. Not sure why I never made it here.

I'm looking for a "like GSD" but healthier. I'm willing to go smaller, but nothing below 45 lbs.

What I love about shepherds:

- Brains
- Seriousness
- Owner worship without being touchy feely (current hound would prefer to be in your lap at all times - drives me nuts)
- Bombproofness
- Wash 'n wear (highly prefer short but double coated breeds)
- Aloofness with strangers
- Good off switch
- Hardness

We live on 500 acres in Maine, so must be able to handle very cold weather and rough terrain. We hike long distances in the back country, camp, kayak, etc. This is also why I mention hardness - we're sort of a rough 'n tumble family.

I've thought about Border Collie, but sound reactivity is a problem during hunting season, and whenever DH gets irritated (he's a shouter - eggs are burning, he yells at them. I fear a Border Collie would take this to mean all eggs are a source of anxiety that should be treated with suspicion.)

I've thought of Aussie, but "bouncy" and "happy" sort of turn me off. Maybe working Aussie? Any working Aussie people here?

I've thought of ACD but frankly all the ones I see look too short of leg for our area. I'd have to hoist them up rocks. No fun.

I've thought of Malinois, but fear it's way too much dog.

I've thought of the other Belgians but their snipey heads and abundant coat turn me off. My chow mix has a coat like that - it's a snowball magnet.

I've thought of English Shepherd but they seem so variable that I can't peg them. Some are too fluffy as well.

There's a bazillion rare breed herders, but I'm not super keen on importing. I will if I have to, however, since I feel like I've hit a wall.

I'm also open to non-herders. Since I like them, that's just where I started, but maybe I should broaden the search?

I would recommend an ES. I love my guy, even though he is a little smaller than average (he's travel size). They are very variable, depending on what line you are looking at, just means you can get a dog that fits your needs And just because they can be fluffy, that doesn't mean they aren't wash & wear. Even the fuzzy ones tend to be pretty teflon.

I know of a few ES people in Maine, NH, VT that I could point you to if you are looking for a dog.

LOL! All I considered was ACD. Yeah, they are shorter legged, but they are bouncy! I don't think you'd have a problem with rocks, honestly.

Have you considered fostering to try a few different dogs out?

I agree with fostering a few different dogs to get a feel for the different breeds.

Also if you're doing a lot of backcountry I would suggest a working bred dog, they're structure and temperment tends to be better suited for a harder lifestyle.

ACD is my first thought. If you are open to rescue a lot of the non show ones are leggier.

My guy is a mix but shorter on the leg and he climbs trees so I wouldn't worry about rocks.

Your list sounds a lot like my ideal list (Other than the size that's Dekka to a T) I have been looking at ACDs as they seem to fit my list the best. (currently got a crestie as I have other wants in a second dog)

When Dekka goes, hopefully in many many many years.. I am seriously thinking ACD.

I was thinking Malinois. I agree you should try to foster and then you will be able to find the perfect dog for you that way!

I would definitely say ACD. My girl is a mix, so she basically has the personality of one without the energy, but I can say that they would most likely fit your needs. Even though a lot of them have shorter legs, they are powerful little dogs and would likely have no problem with rocks (especially if they are used to climbing them).

It's tough to get inherent bombproofness, aloof with strangers, and hardness together in one breed, imo. Hardness and brains often comes with hyper alertness to the environment, so requires the ton of socialization to get to the point of "bombproof and aloof".

BC's have a higher chance of sound reactivity and bounciness than Aussies, but not all Aussies are sound reactive and bouncy either. I'd actually say that working-line Aussies are more often the bouncy, happy kind that you don't want- it's the show lines (from a reputable breeder) or just Aussies not directly bred towards working lines that are the ones that can turn out inherently totally bombproof, aloof, calm, still handler-focused... but not half as intense or workaholic, in that case.

I actually thought of Bermese Mountain Dog for number one, which might be kind of random. They have the inherent bombproofness to basically everything from sounds to visual stimulus, aloofness, and a hardy can-do-everything type that can fit really well into the lifestyle you're describing. I don't have any real personal experience with them though, but just throwing this one out there from what other handlers describe.

I also think ACD is one of the breeds with a higher chance of what you're looking for, besides GSDs. But that said, every dog is seriously an individual... breeds aren't divided into different temperaments so acutely. And I agree for the fostering to see which dog fits what you want the best- it doesn't have to be breed specific. :0

So in all seriousness, what do you want the dog to do exactly? Just a hiking buddy? hauling stuff on those hikes? protection from the creepy crawlies?

After reading your description no breeds exactly came to mind but when you mentioned environment I thought more of LSG dogs rather than a herding dog. There are several that are wash and wear and a fair number qualify as aloof with strangers and unlikely to react to noise that doesn't mean something to them. Their brains are their own to use and I have never met one that as an adult I would describe as brainless.

I thought the same. (I just talk in circles sometimes, but Kat gets to the point. LOL.)

I only just realized for some reason that there was no mention of needing a high working drive or high handler-focus... which negates the necessity of herding breeds (probably what made me mistake to begin with), and just makes me think of certain LSG breeds would fit even more. Burmese are considered a drafting breed, but their temperament is still in the vein of LSG dogs. And they're common enough that you don't need to fly around the country (or out of country) looking for a good breeder.

Great Pyrenees was another that came to mind, but harder to come across than Burmese. In general, they're the LSG breed that doesn't drool much at all, though they may look it.

My experience with LGBs is that they aren't big hikers. Great dogs but not really up there in endurance. Most I know would just lie down and wait if we went too far with the horses. Heat can also be an issue.

I think an ACD or English shepherd would be a good fit.

I don't really see a LGD fitting with your list.

To all the recommendations on ACD... I like a lot of what I've read on the breed, so I'm glad to see that confirmed. I think I'll just have to meet some and see where it goes. We have one ACD breeder nearby who goes for larger, taller dogs, but I'm not sure what to think of him. He supposedly works his dogs on sheep, but no mention of health testing, and a number of them are non-registered... That by itself doesn't bother me, but it could be the tip of the iceberg.

We'll be looking in the next year or so. If any of the folks you know in northern New England would be willing to chat I'd be very interested in talking to them. I like many of the things I've read about ES, but again, find them hard to peg. I think meeting ones nearby would help.

For GSD, it's sort of the ideal - bomproof, one owner/family, smart. But yes, it's extremely hard to find in other breeds, hence my post looking for help.

I do of course realize that environmental soundness comes with socialization. Even GSD need that - but it's something a good one should have the capacity for as an adult, whereas a more sensitive dog could be socialized out the wazoo and still panic at the local parade when they launch the canons for Memorial Day.

As Fiona noticed, I don't do dog sports. I did in the past (agility and obedience), but since moving to the boonies, there are no facilities/classes nearby. I'm closer to Canada now than I am to the rest of the USA. So activities would be primarily hiking, camping, boating, hunting, and hanging out doing chores (wood splitting, dropping trees, gardening, feeding animals, etc.).

You're right that I don't have to have a herder for that, but I find their handler attentiveness useful. Herders are more likely to be able to be called off coyote traps, ATVs, moose and deer; they're easier to give direction to for an approach up an obstacle; they're good alert dogs (notice when things are amiss); and they don't tend to roam. Plus I just like them.

I need the degree of hardness I'm asking for due to the rigorous conditions (sharp granite, steep ledges, wind, rain, sleet, etc.), and that we often take our dogs to work sites where there might be a skidder, chain saw, bucket loader, gravel crusher, etc. all going at once making a hell of a racket. Someone might dump a load of boulders. Another person might be loading the log truck. It's loud and unpredictable. Startling is fine as long as the recovery is quick.

I can ease up on stranger aloofness. It's a personal preference but not a requirement. And maybe the hardness I'm looking for isn't such a big deal. A great deal of the time our house is very quiet. But that other 40% or so there's gunfire, heavy equipment, grouchy DH with burning eggs, etc.

This has been my experience as well. LGDs are actually pretty common around here - Great Pyrenees crosses mainly, and even one Sarplaninac. Much more common than Berners. While I really appreciate them for what they are, they would not make a good long distance hiker in my experience. Too hot, too physical. I also don't want to get too much bigger than ~80 lbs in case I have to carry/sling the dog out of the woods.

I could see maybe one of the sporting breeds, but most are a little too bouncy/happy again. There are some phenomenal little English Setters around here - I'd maybe look at them. Also Chessies, though some are much too big and bulky for what I want.

Fostering is a great suggestion. I will reach out to some breed rescues and see if there's anything nearby.

I wouldn't define mine as bouncy and happy. Loud and obnoxious, sure... She's out of pet/show lines. She's a bit smaller than what you're looking for, coming in at about 37 pounds. She's also very resilient, but I wouldn't use the term bombproof. She recovers from stress quickly and is always ready to go, however.

A Chinook would fit most of what you're looking for. Except I don't think they are commonly a "serious" breed. They are healthy and hardy. There are a few breeders in NH so they wouldn't be hard for you to find.

They are intelligent, affectionate, wash and wear, good off switch, but also active.

Chinook is not a bad idea. I've actually driven past the original kennel in NH, but haven't met one in person. I know they are growing in popularity with the outdoorsey set in New England.

ETA: I've got at least two versions of the same long post awaiting moderation I guess. I swear, I replied to way more people than just this. Not sure why this short one showed up first??

ETA2: Maybe it will work this way....

To all suggesting ACD - I will most definitely look into them. I like a lot of what I read about the breed, so I think a meeting is in order to get a better feel for the critters. There is one breeder of taller/larger ACDs nearby, but no mention of health testing, and several of his dogs are non-registered. Not a problem in and of itself, but could be just the tip of the iceberg to shoddy breeding practices.

LostAndConfused, I would love to talk with any ES breeders you know in northern New England who'd be willing to chat. A breed I am certainly interested in, but need to learn more about and get some experience with them in person.

To LancerandRara, yes, finding bombproof, smart, aloof, and hard is a very tough combination. It's sort of an ideal in GSDs, but not so much in other breeds - hence my post. I do realize environmental soundness comes with socialization, but the dog must have the inherent capacity for it or all the socialization in the world won't matter.

Kat09Tails, as you and others noticed, I don't do dog sports. I used to, but now that I'm in the boonies, facilities are just too far away. I'm closer to Canada than I am to the rest of the country. So activities the dog would be involved in are hiking, camping, hunting, boating, and a lot of hanging out doing chores (gardening, dropping trees, processing firewood, feeding animals, etc.). The hardness comes into play with the hiking (sharp granite, steep ledges, bad weather, etc.), and also when we take our dogs to work sites. There might be a skidder, bucket loader, gravel crusher or screening plant, chains saws, etc. all going at once. Very loud and unpredictable. Future dog will hopefully be able to roll with this (we often leave them in the truck but it's still loud as all get out). During hunting season, ditto for nearby gunfire.

So no, I don't necessarily have to have a herding breed, but I do find them easier. They can be called off coyote traps, ATVs, deer, moose, etc., be given directions on approach to an obstacle, and don't tend to roam. Plus I just like them.

There are actually lots of LGDs in this area, Great Pyrenees crosses mostly. In my experience, they are not hikers. It's too hot and too physical. As mentioned, they'd rather lie down and observe. I also am trying to avoid going above ~80 lb. in case I need to carry/sling out a dog if it's injured.

I would maybe consider a gun dog breed - there are some super little (field) English Setters around here, and I may be willing to bend on the aloofness factor for the right breed, as long as I get an alert bark. Chessies I've thought of too, but many are much too large for our activities.

Great thoughts everyone, many thanks!

Wow! Okay I had such a long post that's now gone. I thought maybe it was just in waiting, but since posting that last one, I see I'm wrong. Bummer.

To all suggesting ACD - I will most definitely look into them. I like a lot of what I read about the breed, so I think a meeting is in order to get a better feel for the critters. There is one breeder of taller/larger ACDs nearby, but no mention of health testing, and several of his dogs are non-registered. Not a problem in and of itself, but could be just the tip of the iceberg to shoddy breeding practices.

LostAndConfused, I would love to talk with any ES breeders you know in northern New England who'd be willing to chat. A breed I am certainly interested in, but need to learn more about and get some experience with them in person.

To LancerandRara, yes, finding bombproof, smart, aloof, and hard is a very tough combination. It's sort of an ideal in GSDs, but not so much in other breeds - hence my post. I do realize environmental soundness comes with socialization, but the dog must have the inherent capacity for it or all the socialization in the world won't matter.

Kat09Tails, as you and others noticed, I don't do dog sports. I used to, but now that I'm in the boonies, facilities are just too far away. I'm closer to Canada than I am to the rest of the country. So activities the dog would be involved in are hiking, camping, hunting, boating, and a lot of hanging out doing chores (gardening, dropping trees, processing firewood, feeding animals, etc.). The hardness comes into play with the hiking (sharp granite, steep ledges, bad weather, etc.), and also when we take our dogs to work sites. There might be a skidder, bucket loader, gravel crusher or screening plant, chains saws, etc. all going at once. Very loud and unpredictable. Future dog will hopefully be able to roll with this (we often leave them in the truck but it's still loud as all get out). During hunting season, ditto for nearby gunfire.

So no, I don't necessarily have to have a herding breed, but I do find them easier. They can be called off coyote traps, ATVs, deer, moose, etc., be given directions on approach to an obstacle, and don't tend to roam. Plus I just like them.

There are actually lots of LGDs in this area, Great Pyrenees crosses mostly. In my experience, they are not hikers. It's too hot and too physical. As mentioned, they'd rather lie down and observe. I also am trying to avoid going above ~80 lb. in case I need to carry/sling out a dog if it's injured.

I would maybe consider a gun dog breed - there are some super little (field) English Setters around here, and I may be willing to bend on the aloofness factor for the right breed, as long as I get an alert bark. Chessies I've thought of too, but many are much too large for our activities.

Great thoughts everyone, many thanks!

Another idea, have you looked into a Dutch shepherd? From the one I met and the owner describing the breed, they seem to be a little less dog than the malinois, but more owner focused/velcroey like a german shepherd.

Bombproof/wash and ready/etc.

I only have limited experience with the breed, so I would definitely research them more if you think it may be a good option for you.

The thing to watch with herders is that they have prey drive. They WILL chase deer, moose, ect. Also, you are going to need to do outside training. Yes, all of those things are ideal for a cattle dog; however, IMHO they still need mental stimulation to stay "healthy".

But, I'm just one person in the world. Also, a rescue would probably fit you well. Carolina R&R would be a good place to start.