Teaching take and drop to energetic dog

The previous message related mostly to this except we used wrong adjectives (it's sometimes difficult to find right words):
We are going to go through with your suggestions one at the time and tell what kind of issues my friend has/doesn't have with them.
Actually the reason we wrote that is that some of you had commented that my friend could not use any of your suggestions, but we forgot to mention it.

My friend was trying to say that we should rather concentrate on discussing about ways where the behaviors are teached only with toys.



That suggestion doesn't work because this is how Lotta behaves with toys:
http://s740.photobucket.com/user/CavalierLotta/media/Lottajalelu_zpsd7ed6a74.mp4.html

That's why my friend needs to hold onto the toy by herself. She can use only one toy at the time because she needs to hold a clicker in one hand. Someone suggested a flirt pole. Lotta has for example that toy seen in the video.

One could easily see in that tutorial how to teach those behaviors. "My friend could follow the instructions in that tutorial if someone could answer to the questions about it." Those questions relates mostly to naming the behaviors.

Eleonora said:

When we linked the tutorial (from Pamela Johnson) that my friend had seen about it, we told what the previous questions were if you haven't noticed them. The next questions are:
1) Has my friend missed something or is there a way to teach take it cue/behavior to a dog that behaves this way?:

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Eleonora said:

This is not only about training sessions: Lotta often....//....behaves like no one has said anything and like she wouldn't "hear" anything

So, Lotta may not notice that one is saying something.

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How would you teach the take cue to a dog that behaves like s/he wouldn't hear what you're saying?

Eleonora said:

2) When you teach take it, how do you prevent this from happening?:

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Sekah said:

...any words you use to apply to the behaviour become white noise right off the bat.

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sassafras said:

Having said that, if this were my dog I would take a step back and work on impulse control. If she gets SO excited during training sessions that training is this difficult or frustrating, then there is no technique in the world that will help train a specific task until she learns some self control. Check out games like "It's Yer Choice" or "Puppy Zen" on YouTube and start there, and set aside specific tricks until she can calm down and focus.

Click to expand...

We had just wrote about that in another thread.

My friend thought that the lack of answers may be because there might be things that you haven't understood or would have misunderstood. If that's the case, you should tell us about it. First of all, Lotta is not a problem dog and we are talking about teaching basic things. We may not be talking about Lotta's behavior when we use the words "issue" and "problem". For example, the reason the method in the domesticated manners tutorial didn't work was not in Lotta's behavior but in the way it's teached (one rewards with treats in it).


We had even linked a video here:
We had put straight questions here. My friend is still willing to try things as long as one uses only toys in them.

You can always substitute one reward for another. That is, just because a tutorial uses treats that doesn't mean YOU have to use treats - you can use a toy instead. Many people use toys for rewards, but the basic technique is still the same.

I'm going to quote myself because I thought the method I offered sounded like what you needed - but you gave me no feedback.

We did mention about it twice although we quoted this message only once:

We were referring also to that suggestion when we wrote this:

My friend doesn't usually use a collar on Lotta. It's also so that my friend uses a clicker and she cannot use a verbal praise/marker. Reason my friend cannot use it is that good is this in finnish:

and that is how it often sounds like. So it cannot be used as a marker. Also many other short words are similar to that.

She needs to hold a clicker in one hand and a toy in another so that Lotta can't run away with it. That's why it would be difficult to also hold onto the collar if my friend would use it. In other words, my friend has not enough hands for it.

Otherwice yes, but this is how it's done in this tutorial:
My friend is not sure how one could apply the method in the domesticated manners tutorial since one uses mostly treats in it. My friend wants to add that many of our previous messages relates to that tutorial.

It would have been easier to apply the method in the tutorial that we had linked by ourselves but my friend didn't find answers to the questions about it.

I probably didn't read all of your posts thoroughly because I find them very hard to read with the bold don't and the multiple quoting of yourself. We typically don't quote ourselves here, again I find it hard to read and to be honest, a little condescending. Does your friend have a name or nickname we can call her here? That may help vs. the "my friend" thing constantly. Just a suggestion

Sounds like Lotta needs either higher value treats, or a lower value toy. She explains it briefly in this video - but I liked how it's continual play, since you said Lotta is more toy motivated. She also has links to another video about being you or food motivated if you and your friend want to check them out.
Instead of treating you could reward with a higher value toy, too

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4xVQG3G7JUg

I did have some questions for you:

What kind of toys/treats are you using?
Where are you working on these training sessions at? How frequent and how long?
How much exercise is Lotta getting daily? You posted about her acting "silly" but to be honest it sounds like she needs an outlet for her energy before you guys start any training sessions.
What basic behaviors does Lotta have? Can she sit, down, stay, etc?

We didn't know that we should not use bolding although there is that option here. We had gotten used to using it elsewhere. The reason we have used quoting is that it has been easier to use same sentences than to rewrite the same things differently. We can concider your suggestion.

My friend has seen many of her tutorials and she has also seen the one you had linked. The method in that tutorial is quite similar to the one from ZsianZ we had linked in the first message of the thread.

When my friend tried what was done in that tutorial
Lotta got really excited about the toy but when she gave Lotta a treat,
Lotta was already taking the toy back before eating it completely. Lotta got as excited as in this video (it relates to one of the things blackrose had suggested):
http://s740.photobucket.com/user/CavalierLotta/media/Lottajalelu_zpsd7ed6a74.mp4.html

That's why my friend needs to hold onto the toy by herself. She can use ONLY ONE TOY at the time because she needs to hold a clicker in one hand. That's the way it was done in the tutorial from Pamela Johnson we had linked in the page 2. It would have been easier to apply the method in the tutorial but my friend didn't find answers to the questions about it.

My friend can use treats as a reward with other behaviors but not with take and drop. It's because Lotta is interested in toys more than treats if the behavior involves toys. When my friend is teaching behaviors that don't include toys, she uses the treats Lotta likes.

Someone suggested a flirt pole. Lotta has for example that toy seen in the video above. My friend has only tried some things including two of the things suggested in this thread. When we mentioned about Lotta acting silly it related to one of those suggestions.

Lotta knows how to sit and down and my friend is going to teach her easy tricks. My friend lives in an apartment so Lotta needs to be taken out few times a day.

I was just wondering what kind of treats you were using - the ones in the video, look store bought. Maybe kibble or a soft training treat? Lotta loves toys so much, that you would have to use a higher value training treat to be effective.. Here's a link explaining what I mean http://leerburg.com/usingtreats.htm
The sections "Different Treats for Different Jobs" and "My dog is not much of a chow hound" would especially partiain to you two and Lotta some ideas are cut up hot dogs, steak, cheese, chicken, etc

I understand totally what you mean about not having enough hands. I feel like I have this problem when I train all of the time juggling the clicker I am not very graceful and I am kind of clumsy, but I have gotten better with practice. What works for me, when I need more hands, especially with a smaller dog like Lotta - is I sit Indian style or "criss cross applesauce" and I put the toy (or treats, in my case) in between my legs so I have easy, quick access to grabbing it.
Or, if your friend prefers standing, could she step on the rope to keep it in place while Lotta is playing with it? Then, when she lets go of it for a split second, she could click and reward(whether that be a high value treat or another toy). That actually might work better, because she'll be getting less tug feedback compared to the give-and-take motion of holding in her hand.

I also wanted to add that I'm almost always on my tablet or iPhone, and sometimes a good portion of the time I can't get embedded videos to work half of the time, so I don't mean to be repetitive or be contradictive or anything, I just haven't seen previous videos posted.

I still think Lotta would benefit from a good dose of exercise, she seems to have some pent up energy and I think that would help her take the edge off so she can learn how to focus.

Straw has sort of described how I taught "give" with Gusto. I teach it all within the confines of playing tug, and it easily transferred over to other things. I clicker trained plenty of things with him, but didn't use the clicker for this because of the "not enough hands" issue. I used a verbal marker (I use "yes!"; if 'good' isn't an ideal word in your language, just pick a different word, or noise. It really doesn't matter what you say, as long as that word always means "a reward is coming".)

I'd get him playing with his tug. Once he got really into it, I would hold his collar (if Lotta isn't used to that, google the Collar Grab game and work on that first, so it isn't aversive to her) and just hold it and the toy still. He'd keep trying to tug for a minute, but without any resistance, it doesn't really work. As soon as he'd drop it from his mouth, I'd mark it verbally with Yes!, then release the collar and start engaging him with the toy again (be sure to drag it around on the floor rather than throwing it in her face). Tug tug tug, until I would hold the collar again, stop tugging, wait for the drop. Once he was pretty consistent, I'd start adding in the verbal cue (I use 'gimme') as soon as my hand was on his collar, and 'get it' when I wanted him to re-engage. Eventually I'd use the word without reaching for his collar.

You only need two hands, since no clicker or cookies are used. One hand for the tug, the other to hold the collar. Yes, your friend will have to put a collar on for this, even if she doesn't usually use one. It will make life easier.

I agree.

"My friend lives in an apartment so Lotta needs to be taken out few times a day." Lotta often acts silly. Lotta does it when she is been trained. Lotta behaves by that way also because she is a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. Cavaliers are funny. That's why Lotta does it also when she is not been trained. Lotta is generally that kind of dog that behaves that way.

In our video, my friend was not feeding Lotta anything. There is just some leftover kibble on the floor. My friend was not also training Lotta in it. My friend only wanted to show how Lotta reacts when she does this:
My friend also wanted to show how Lotta reacts if she takes the toy back although it was not part of that suggestion.

Like we told, my friend could use only one toy at the time.

My friend should have three hands so that she could do what was suggested.

My friend uses a clicker. She uses it because her dog sometimes moves so fast and she wouldn't otherwise have enough time to reward her dog when she does something right. My friend can push a button faster than to say something. My friend is slow at speaking.

Otherwise it is sometimes hard to reward her dog because she reacts differently to speach and a click.
Including the verbal praise. So, Lotta may not notice that one is saying something. Lotta does react to a click because it's louder than words.

We are going to link the tutorial by two different ways (in case one of them works) we tried to ask about and put those questions one more time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6izzWz71RE
When we linked that tutorial, those were the questions if you haven't noticed them. The next questions are:
1) Has my friend missed something or is there a way to teach take it cue/behavior to a dog that behaves by the way we told above?

2) When you teach take it, how do you prevent this from happening?:

So, we have linked a tutorial by ourself where those behaviors are teached without treats. We have tried to ask questions about that tutorial but...

Does anyone know answers to those questions?

When I'm home this evening and not on my phone, I'm going to try to answer your questions.

If the dog is going to actively re-engage with the toy as soon as you make it active again (like the puppy in that video), I have no problem using the verbal cue right away. As you can see, the puppy was still slow to drop the toy when she "made it boring", hence holding off on naming the behavior. The puppy always went for the toy as soon as she started playing with it again, hence using the verbal cue immediately. I did the same thing with my dog.

I would really, really work on finding some sort of verbal cue that your friend can use as a marker along with a clicker. It seems a common issue for her is coordinating hands/treats/toys/clicker, and it gives her one less thing to hold on to. It can be anything - heck, use the English word 'yes' if there is no appropriate word in your language. Or a click of the tongue, or popping lips, or anything. My dogs love the clicker, and I like it for very precise work, but having a verbal 'cookie' marker is incredibly handy as well.

Okay. Here we go.

First, I want to say: no tutorial is going to be perfect. Dogs are dogs, but each dog learns best in different ways. Because of this, finding a take/drop it tutorial that fits exactly what you are looking for is slim to none. If you want a tutorial that is catered to your dog, get a trainer. An online video, or an online person, is not the place for that.

What online tutorials do, however, is give you a starting place. They say, "Look, here is something that worked for me, look at the theory behind it, try it with your dog, and adapt to fit your dog's needs." No one online can tell you what will best fit your dog's needs without being able to see you and your dog in action, working together. That is what a trainer is for.

All of that being said, let's look at the questions that keep coming up.

1.) How to mark without the use of a clicker.
From your posts, it really sounds like you would greatly prefer to "clicker train" - in other words, you want to let Lotta know exactly when she does something that you are pleased with by using a marker (in this case, the click from a clicker), and then reward at a less precise moment. You have also mentioned before that handling Lotta, toys, treats, and a clicker is difficult. (I agree, and that is one reason I only use a clicker in specific situations - I can't juggle everything! LOL)

So, first step - create a verbal marker. You can still use a clicker in other situations, but when you do find yourself unable to juggle clicker/treats/dog/toys/leash/etc., having a verbal marker to fall back on is wonderful. And although it is less inconsistent (which is why a clicker is so popular - same tone and sound at all times), a dog is fully capable of working through the inconsistencies of sound and understanding what that word means.

I use a verbal marker when I train. My verbal marker is "Yes". You can use whatever word, or sound, you want. One syllable, easy to say, that doesn't frequently come up in conversation.

You condition the verbal marker just like you do the click from a clicker. "Yes!" treat "Yes!" treat "Yes!" treat "Yes!" treat. So on and so forth. The dog will make the connection.

This is how you can mark her exact behavior instead of clicking with the clicker.

ALTERNATIVELY: clickers can be used by other things than your hands. An I-clicker has a huge button on it that is depressed to make the "click" sound. You can do this with your foot, elbow, head, whatever body part suits you. If your hands are full and you can't juggle the clicker, put it on the ground and step on it to make the noise and "mark" the behavior you want.

2.) How to reward without the use of treats.
From your past posts, it sounds like Lotta greatly prefers playing with the toy than taking a treat.

This is okay.

Treats are not the one all, end all of rewards in dog training. ANYTHING the dog finds pleasurable can be a reward. How pleasurable the dog finds something is how "reinforcing", or how "high value", the reward is. When my dog is in the right mind set, throwing a ball for him is 10x more of a reward than giving him a treat.

Base what rewards you give off of what your dog finds rewarding, not what you think she should find rewarding.

Hypothetical example, she drops the toy. You say "Yes!" and attempt to reward with a treat. She ignores the treat and tries to reengage with the toy. Obviously, the treat is not working as a reward, because she is ignoring it. Find another reward. Only you can know what your dog will find more rewarding. We cannot tell you.

3.) How to avoid the command from becoming white noise.
In a perfect world, no command name would be paired with a command until the dog already understood the behavior.

This is not a perfect world.

Dogs are intelligent animals. They are more than able to pair a word with an action, even if the action is unknown to them at first. I think the key, here, is consistency on YOUR part. Don't overuse the word ("dropitdropitdropitdropitdropitdropitdropit"). Say it as the action is happening. But you can say the word before the dog has "learned" the command without the sky falling down and your dog never learning anything, ever. It is okay. I promise. I may not have the most highly trained dogs, but they also know commands that I have paired with words before they "knew" what they were doing. I'm still alive. They're still alive. And they obey the commands I give.

In summary:
1.) A tutorial is a cookie cutter. Dogs are not cookies. Only you, or a trainer who works with you, can know how to adapt the tutorial to fit your dog.
2.) A marker can be any sound, not just a click from a clicker. You can condition a verbal marker (a word, a whistle, whatever you want) to use in place of a click. If that isn't an option, buy a clicker that you can click with your foot.
3.) A reward is anything your dog finds pleasurable. Only you, or a trainer who works with you, can know what your dog will respond best to.
4.) Don't overuse a command, but feel free to pair it with an action before the dog "knows" the action. The world will not end; your dog will still understand what you are trying to accomplish in the end.


Annnnd....that's all I've got. Those are my responses. If you aren't satisfied with them, I'm sorry. I would be more than happy to answer a new question, but I won't try to remake an answer to tell you what you want to hear for the questions you have repeatedly asked.

Thanks for your answers! My friend just wanted to get answers about that tutorial. We can tell later how well it works. My friend is going to be away from home for several days.

My friend has now tried a couple times what was done in the tutorial from Pamela Johnson we had linked. In that tutorial that trainer is showing how to teach the dog to take and drop toys on cue also without treats. So, we have this video of it:

Lotta is growling because she likes toys so much. :rofl1: It takes a little time before Lotta drops the toy but she does it eventually. (My friend couldn't say anything to Lotta in that video, because we were going to link it here and some of you already knows that she can't communicate/talk to strangers.) Normally she does praise Lotta also verbally and does use verbal cues whenever she can.

So, what do you think about that? Is there anything my friend should do differently?

When she's going to take something away, the best way to encourage the dog to give it up is to trade for something better than what she's going to take, then (if the thing the dog has is safe enough to have) give that thing back again. Make it a game. Back and forth. Start with things that aren't very high value. Make the thing the dog loves somewhat better but as the training game advances, increase the value of the thing the dog has gotten hold of and increase the value of the trading thing. If the dog loves food, use it. I don't know why someone wouldn't want to use food. It's a primary reinforcer. Praise is marginal in most cases and if you're trying to teach a new behavior, your best odds of getting compliance is to use something the dog LOVES a LOT. Be sure it's made into a game. Give (to my hand) and take. Then she can do drop. Use the cues only when the dog is doing it. Don't try to elicit the behavior with the cues until the dog has made the association with the cue and the behavior. Keep very, very high value items away from the dog until she's onto this. It's not funny if the dog is showing signs of resource guarding and by taking things away that the dog doesn't want to give up is a sure way to escalate that. Make sure the dog is made to feel like it's the best thing ever to give up her stuff.

Here is that tutorial my friend had seen about this:
[YOUTUBE]Y6izzWz71RE[/YOUTUBE]

We had told in this thread that it doesn't work with treats. This is what blackrose had written about it:
That is what she had written about using verbal cues.

If you are worrying that Lotta is growling in our video, she does it because she likes toys so much. She's having fun. Lotta is very playful. We can tell you more if needed.

The video looks great. She's using a click and treat and being sure not to add a cue until the dog is reliable or has made the association between the cue and behavior. People often make the mistake of cuing their dog too early and they miss the association. Making the toy boring is also a great way to help the dog give it up. My puppies learned drop it, leave it and give the first day I brought them home. They were so into picking up rocks and other undesirables in the yard, it was imperative they learned those things quickly. They're incredibly quick at catching on to new things.