Results of a shock collar on my chihuahua

S

Squishy22

Guest
#21
I doubt very much the one get shocked is happier now then she was before.

I dont know your situation at all... but it sounds like this was not used as a last resort after trainers, behaviorists, and hard work.... It sounds like you said "I need quiet for my baby I will use a shock collar" to get a quick solution... which may be what makes you happy but it shouldnt be advocated as a great solution that people may come on here looking for advice and take as gospel.
Hopefully people who come on to the board will see that shock collars should be used as a LAST RESORT and only after consulting a TRAINER or BEHAVIORIST.
I wasnt intending to get into a debate over this. Reminds me of the time people thought I was wrong for using a prong collar. I wanted to voice my experience with the collar. Thats all. Some people dont like them, and some people do. Some people would rather spray their dog in the face with lemon juice.

I dont really think people should be too closed minded about the subject when they have never tried the collar themselves. I have.

There are responsible dog owners and dog lovers that use shock collars. Summeriot told me that her bark collars work well with her shelties. I've been battling Pebbs barking problem for over two years, well before the baby was even conceived. It wasnt something that was spur of the moment for a quick fix, it just happens that it works for us.

I'm assuming that you really dont know if my dog is happy or not since you've never seen her. She is not mopey, shes not depressed, she is eating well, she still greets people at the door with excitement (even if I have to beep the collar). Shes not an anxious mess. If this terribly upset her, I would immediately return the collar from where I bought it.

I absolutely agree with you that these collars are only for last resorts.
 

Saje

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#22
Glad everyone is happy :)

And I think it's important to note that pebbles is probably also being rewarded by not being yelled at and scolded all the time. lol
 
S

Squishy22

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#23
Glad everyone is happy :)

And I think it's important to note that pebbles is probably also being rewarded by not being yelled at and scolded all the time. lol
Thanks, Saje. I am sure she is happy that shes not being yelled at anymore or bothered by people trying to get her to be quiet. Theres just no hassles anymore. Its a lot calmer around here.

I want to note that I also give her a nice little treat ever time I dont have to use the beeper!
 
B

Backward_Cinderella

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#25
We've been thinking about a collar for Booger. His barking is almost constant. I think he sees ants across the street and barks at them. o_O
We did the training thing, spent a crap load of money on it, and got absolutely NO results. I keep thinking about it, going online to order the one my grooming supplier has, and then changing my mind at the last minute. I didn't know walmart carried one. How much do they cost? Do you have to be at a certain distance?
 

mrose_s

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#26
We've put one on Harry this week, its one that automatically goes up to 6 levels from a small vibration up. It resets itself aftre 30 seconds of quiet.

His barking was just... ah. He see's somethign, he barks... and barks, and barks and barks and barks, long after they are gone. Plus we have no way of stopping him if we arn't there, I'm not a fan of shock collars but I'm less of a fan of loosing our dogs to the council because they won't be quiet. We have been thinking about it for about a year, but the sound ones would effect all teh dogs for harry's barking, and the spray ones cause respiratory issuess.

We worked up to it very slowly for abotu a week, put it on, lots of treats and praise, then we turned it on 2 days ago. He took off barking flat out once and got a big zap, not nice :( but its shut him up, he's barely barked since.

Our bigegst issue, I havn't witnessed it yet though. Is that once Harry barked, got a zap and Buster attacked him. Buster has never had an issue with Harry excepot for twice and that was food related. So
now I don't know.

Just... thankgod we have this woman coming this weekend. I really hope big changes come out of this.
 

lizzybeth727

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#27
Our bigegst issue, I havn't witnessed it yet though. Is that once Harry barked, got a zap and Buster attacked him. Buster has never had an issue with Harry excepot for twice and that was food related. So
now I don't know.

Just... thankgod we have this woman coming this weekend. I really hope big changes come out of this.
Many times dogs will act aggressively toward other dogs who are in pain. I don't know exactly why, but it does happen. Maybe Buster noticed that Harry was in pain. Maybe you should stop using the collar until you have "the woman" come this weekend and talk to her about it.
 
S

Squishy22

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#28
We've been thinking about a collar for Booger. His barking is almost constant. I think he sees ants across the street and barks at them. o_O
We did the training thing, spent a crap load of money on it, and got absolutely NO results. I keep thinking about it, going online to order the one my grooming supplier has, and then changing my mind at the last minute. I didn't know walmart carried one. How much do they cost? Do you have to be at a certain distance?
I didnt know walmart carried them either. It was only 40 bucks. BUT, I am going to get on the net and look for a bark collar that isnt remote controlled. Thats the only problem I have with the one from walmart.

As far as distance goes. I know the beeper works no matter where I am at in the house.
 
S

Squishy22

Guest
#29
We've put one on Harry this week, its one that automatically goes up to 6 levels from a small vibration up. It resets itself aftre 30 seconds of quiet.

His barking was just... ah. He see's somethign, he barks... and barks, and barks and barks and barks, long after they are gone. Plus we have no way of stopping him if we arn't there, I'm not a fan of shock collars but I'm less of a fan of loosing our dogs to the council because they won't be quiet. We have been thinking about it for about a year, but the sound ones would effect all teh dogs for harry's barking, and the spray ones cause respiratory issuess.

We worked up to it very slowly for abotu a week, put it on, lots of treats and praise, then we turned it on 2 days ago. He took off barking flat out once and got a big zap, not nice :( but its shut him up, he's barely barked since.

Our bigegst issue, I havn't witnessed it yet though. Is that once Harry barked, got a zap and Buster attacked him. Buster has never had an issue with Harry excepot for twice and that was food related. So
now I don't know.

Just... thankgod we have this woman coming this weekend. I really hope big changes come out of this.
If he yipped and it was obvious that he was in pain, then you have the collar on a setting thats too high for him. If none of the lower setting seem to work for him, then the shock collar isnt the way to go. Maybe you can try one with an unpleasant noise instead?

Its not good that your other dog is attacking him like that. All thats going to do is make him into a nervous wreck.

I hope everything works out for you!!!!!!
 

Doberluv

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#30
IMO there is no justification to cause a dog pain. There is no place for such devices in training. It may work instantly. But taking time to train a dog gets at the root of the issues rather than supressing them. And this hasn't taken long at all to train my dogs and some other peoples' dogs....a matter of a few session to get a very good hold on the behavior.

This is the method I wrote out for someone and have used on clients' dogs. (I'm training now) It worked on my VERY yappy Chihuahuas and my mixed breed. And it worked quite quickly. Everytime they hear the word, "enough," they come running for a treat. After a while, the treat will be put on a variable reward schedule so they won't need a treat every time.


Bark Training


Well, my way isn't to correct the barking as in a verbal reprimand type thing. That's telling the dog that barking is a no no. And it's not. The dog is stressed and barking. It may not even be bad stress necessarily, but she's worked up. So, punishment wouldn't be appropriate because it can cause the dog to get more worked up and associate the trigger with punishment. You want to avoid that.

It's confusing to a dog to be able to do something like that sometimes and sometimes not, so a correction could be confusing. So, instead of looking at it like stopping the barking, I'm focusing in my own mind on what the dog is to do and giving him something to do. But first, the barking is put on the "to do" list. (I'll explain in a minute)

And I don't wait for real life situations to come up to do the training...hardly ever in any situation. I set up the environment I want.... to practice and make it easier for the dog to succeed. (at first). Ignoring the barking which goes on and on doesn't work because she is being self rewarded. It's satisfying to her to bark. And a few "thank you" barks are a good thing to let you know that someone is out there. The window between her and her trigger is a barrier and it causes frustration. That's why she's OK outside.
Besides the training, you'll need to address and take into account any underlying socialization deficits, lack of exercise or any lack of mental stimulation etc. Resolving the underlying cause is the main intervention.


Here's the method I've used and it works if you're consistent:

Put the barking on cue...say "speak" or "bark" (whatever cue you want, just keep it the same) You can use a hand signal too if you want. I open and close my fingers against my thumb like my hand is imitating a mouth, like you'd do with kids when they talk too much.

Immediately after you cue (not more than a second or two after, get the dog to bark by having someone knock on the door or whatever else will make him bark.
Dog barks.


Praise..."gooooood!" (no treat, just a little praise)


Give cue...."quiet" or "enough" (I use enough, but whatever you choose, just make it the same.) And immediately after, show the treat to prompt quiet....hold the treat in front of his nose...get him distracted until he is quiet. Hold the treat for 3-5 seconds and then give it to him.

Repeat with less and less visibility of the treat prompt but still give it to him after perfect 3-5 second quiets.


Repeat with longer and longer durations of quiet before giving the treat.


Practice with lots of visitors or whatever else triggers the barking. Vary them.
Do it over and over till the dog gets onto this game. And it is a game. It my take a few sessions so keep it up. You'll know that the dog gets it when he barks on the cue and doesn't need the door knocking or other noises to set him off. And he quiets on the first cue to quiet without being shown the treat. Still give him a treat but take it from somewhere he won't notice so much, like your pocket or a table top. (later, once reliable, you'll put the treats on a variable reinforcement schedule)

If he ever starts to bark during a quiet time with even a half attempt at a bark or a tiny soft bark, tell him "woops" (a no reward marker) and start your count over again....1,2,3,4,5...He has to know that barking during the quiet time lost him the treat. He needs to give you 3-5 seconds of perfect quiet after you cue the quiet.

Practice this by going back and forth, back and forth between the cue to bark... and the cue to quiet...lots of times before trying it out in real situations. Set up the situations so you can practice better. Expose him to a wider variety of sights and sounds if he is especially easily set off.

Many people give up because they never get past the hard part. Memorize the instructions and understand them completely. Practice, practice. This process works if you give it ample training. It can seem like it's going nowhere the first few times and most people never make it past the initial hard part. The first few times, the dog will respond poorly so you must be ready with some very tasty treats. If he messes up once you've decreased the visibility of the treats for a while, go back to showing him them again for a bit. (Often, dogs that have been trained using more traditional methods take a while to get onto the game because they haven't learned about doggie zen) They’re not accustom to controlling their own behavior because someone else is controlling it for them.

When he's been doing this for a while and he barks after being told to "quiet," he must get an instant time out away from the action, which most dogs find fun and stimulating. Having to leave the excitement really bothers most dogs. Timing, of course is vital as always. Once you've given the "quiet" cue and he barks, he must immediately get a "Woops" (too bad for you) and he is quickly removed to the isolation area. Do not let him out if he barks. Wait for a lull of about 5-10 seconds first after having been in there for a minute or two.

You can also do a down-stay. A lot of dogs don't bark when they're lying down.

It is very likely that it will get worse before it gets better. Your dog has been barking for a long time this way and when something has been working and then it doesn't, he's going to try and try some more. The sudden shift in the rules will likely cause some confusion at first. But then there will be an extinction burst where by he tries and tries and the last time he tries before he gives up because it's not working, he's going to give it all he's got. Keep at it. This will pass. Once he finally gives up for good, the behavior will extinguish. It will extinguish because it doesn't work to bark. Nothing satisfying comes from the excessive barking and no behavior exists when there is no motivator. BUT...something better happens, that works better when he hears the word, "quiet." So that new behavior will be taken on.

The trouble with force based methods, intimidation, aversives and all that is that it tends to regress badly and often, fairly soon. I went that route for years and it never worked. Power struggles don't work. And primarily, it doesn't get at the root of the issue which could be a bad socialization history or some other fear or even excitement over seeing a dog pal. You don't want to escalate that. Associating the other dog or whatever triggers a dog to bark manically with that kind of punishment is that the dog is already stressed, emotionally and physiologically (heart rate, adrenalin, respiration levels are higher) and it further associates the trigger with more of a stressful time than he was already having. It doesn't help the dog to calm down. It only shuts a dog down so he looks calmer but he's "stuffing it." Showing the dog that good things happen in the presence of the trigger and for obeying your cue makes for a much more reliable skill and a much happier dog. It's also less wear and tear on the owner in the long run.

Once the behavior is quite well on it's way, practice this in different environments, locations, contexts and various triggers. Get the dog to generalize this behavior in any kind of situation, anyplace.

I have two yappy Chihuahuas and one loud mouth mix breed... and believe me, if any dog can bark, they can. LOL. I used this method and was lazy with one of my dogs. In the last week or so, I've been practicing better and let me tell you, the second they hear, "enough"....they all three stop barking in unison...absolutely suddenly and exactly together at the same second. It's great. They got the initial behavior going quite well in just one or two sessions. It took some more to get the cues independent of the prompt and the door knocking person.

It can also double as a fun trick to show people. "speak" and "quiet."
 
S

Squishy22

Guest
#33
IMO there is no justification to cause a dog pain. There is no place for such devices in training. It may work instantly. But taking time to train a dog gets at the root of the issues rather than supressing them. And this hasn't taken long at all to train my dogs and some other peoples' dogs....a matter of a few session to get a very good hold on the behavior.

This is the method I wrote out for someone and have used on clients' dogs. (I'm training now) It worked on my VERY yappy Chihuahuas and my mixed breed. And it worked quite quickly. Everytime they hear the word, "enough," they come running for a treat. After a while, the treat will be put on a variable reward schedule so they won't need a treat every time.


Bark Training


Well, my way isn't to correct the barking as in a verbal reprimand type thing. That's telling the dog that barking is a no no. And it's not. The dog is stressed and barking. It may not even be bad stress necessarily, but she's worked up. So, punishment wouldn't be appropriate because it can cause the dog to get more worked up and associate the trigger with punishment. You want to avoid that.

It's confusing to a dog to be able to do something like that sometimes and sometimes not, so a correction could be confusing. So, instead of looking at it like stopping the barking, I'm focusing in my own mind on what the dog is to do and giving him something to do. But first, the barking is put on the "to do" list. (I'll explain in a minute)

And I don't wait for real life situations to come up to do the training...hardly ever in any situation. I set up the environment I want.... to practice and make it easier for the dog to succeed. (at first). Ignoring the barking which goes on and on doesn't work because she is being self rewarded. It's satisfying to her to bark. And a few "thank you" barks are a good thing to let you know that someone is out there. The window between her and her trigger is a barrier and it causes frustration. That's why she's OK outside.
Besides the training, you'll need to address and take into account any underlying socialization deficits, lack of exercise or any lack of mental stimulation etc. Resolving the underlying cause is the main intervention.


Here's the method I've used and it works if you're consistent:

Put the barking on cue...say "speak" or "bark" (whatever cue you want, just keep it the same) You can use a hand signal too if you want. I open and close my fingers against my thumb like my hand is imitating a mouth, like you'd do with kids when they talk too much.

Immediately after you cue (not more than a second or two after, get the dog to bark by having someone knock on the door or whatever else will make him bark.
Dog barks.


Praise..."gooooood!" (no treat, just a little praise)


Give cue...."quiet" or "enough" (I use enough, but whatever you choose, just make it the same.) And immediately after, show the treat to prompt quiet....hold the treat in front of his nose...get him distracted until he is quiet. Hold the treat for 3-5 seconds and then give it to him.

Repeat with less and less visibility of the treat prompt but still give it to him after perfect 3-5 second quiets.


Repeat with longer and longer durations of quiet before giving the treat.


Practice with lots of visitors or whatever else triggers the barking. Vary them.
Do it over and over till the dog gets onto this game. And it is a game. It my take a few sessions so keep it up. You'll know that the dog gets it when he barks on the cue and doesn't need the door knocking or other noises to set him off. And he quiets on the first cue to quiet without being shown the treat. Still give him a treat but take it from somewhere he won't notice so much, like your pocket or a table top. (later, once reliable, you'll put the treats on a variable reinforcement schedule)

If he ever starts to bark during a quiet time with even a half attempt at a bark or a tiny soft bark, tell him "woops" (a no reward marker) and start your count over again....1,2,3,4,5...He has to know that barking during the quiet time lost him the treat. He needs to give you 3-5 seconds of perfect quiet after you cue the quiet.

Practice this by going back and forth, back and forth between the cue to bark... and the cue to quiet...lots of times before trying it out in real situations. Set up the situations so you can practice better. Expose him to a wider variety of sights and sounds if he is especially easily set off.

Many people give up because they never get past the hard part. Memorize the instructions and understand them completely. Practice, practice. This process works if you give it ample training. It can seem like it's going nowhere the first few times and most people never make it past the initial hard part. The first few times, the dog will respond poorly so you must be ready with some very tasty treats. If he messes up once you've decreased the visibility of the treats for a while, go back to showing him them again for a bit. (Often, dogs that have been trained using more traditional methods take a while to get onto the game because they haven't learned about doggie zen) They’re not accustom to controlling their own behavior because someone else is controlling it for them.

When he's been doing this for a while and he barks after being told to "quiet," he must get an instant time out away from the action, which most dogs find fun and stimulating. Having to leave the excitement really bothers most dogs. Timing, of course is vital as always. Once you've given the "quiet" cue and he barks, he must immediately get a "Woops" (too bad for you) and he is quickly removed to the isolation area. Do not let him out if he barks. Wait for a lull of about 5-10 seconds first after having been in there for a minute or two.

You can also do a down-stay. A lot of dogs don't bark when they're lying down.

It is very likely that it will get worse before it gets better. Your dog has been barking for a long time this way and when something has been working and then it doesn't, he's going to try and try some more. The sudden shift in the rules will likely cause some confusion at first. But then there will be an extinction burst where by he tries and tries and the last time he tries before he gives up because it's not working, he's going to give it all he's got. Keep at it. This will pass. Once he finally gives up for good, the behavior will extinguish. It will extinguish because it doesn't work to bark. Nothing satisfying comes from the excessive barking and no behavior exists when there is no motivator. BUT...something better happens, that works better when he hears the word, "quiet." So that new behavior will be taken on.

The trouble with force based methods, intimidation, aversives and all that is that it tends to regress badly and often, fairly soon. I went that route for years and it never worked. Power struggles don't work. And primarily, it doesn't get at the root of the issue which could be a bad socialization history or some other fear or even excitement over seeing a dog pal. You don't want to escalate that. Associating the other dog or whatever triggers a dog to bark manically with that kind of punishment is that the dog is already stressed, emotionally and physiologically (heart rate, adrenalin, respiration levels are higher) and it further associates the trigger with more of a stressful time than he was already having. It doesn't help the dog to calm down. It only shuts a dog down so he looks calmer but he's "stuffing it." Showing the dog that good things happen in the presence of the trigger and for obeying your cue makes for a much more reliable skill and a much happier dog. It's also less wear and tear on the owner in the long run.

Once the behavior is quite well on it's way, practice this in different environments, locations, contexts and various triggers. Get the dog to generalize this behavior in any kind of situation, anyplace.

I have two yappy Chihuahuas and one loud mouth mix breed... and believe me, if any dog can bark, they can. LOL. I used this method and was lazy with one of my dogs. In the last week or so, I've been practicing better and let me tell you, the second they hear, "enough"....they all three stop barking in unison...absolutely suddenly and exactly together at the same second. It's great. They got the initial behavior going quite well in just one or two sessions. It took some more to get the cues independent of the prompt and the door knocking person.

It can also double as a fun trick to show people. "speak" and "quiet."
Thats really interesting. I wouldnt mind trying that out, actually. Sounds like a lot of hard work!

Pebbs was outside going off on another dog, and the bark collar wasnt working. That just happened like 3 minutes ago. She was way too much in the moment for her to even care. I turned the collar up and it still didnt work. In the house all I have to do is beep it and she stops. When she sees another person or dog her hair goes on end and she goes NUTS.

She barks from the stress of someone knocking on the door or seeing something outside that gets her adrenalin going (before I beep her collar). My moms pug, on the other hand, barks from boredom, to get food when people are eating, at people, and to get attention. She barks all the time when laying down. Even when nobody is in the room, its very strange, almost creepy, lol.
 
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#34
Hi Carrie!

great post.... I said in another thread I am hoping to train my parents dogs this summer out of their barking while i am there... I am printing your post and will be taking it with me :)

Thanks.
 
S

Squishy22

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#35
Doberluv, have you ever thought about writting a book?? You really should... I think a lot of people would buy it, including me.
 

Doberluv

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#36
Hi guys! Thanks. I have been completely AWOL for a long time for various and sundry reasons...then for he heck of it decided to take a peek here. This thread, (naturally) caught my eye and I just had to post that because it works very well if you put in the effort.

Reggin, that's very sweet of you to say. Yes... in fact, I am writing a book. LOL. It's a big book. (of course...you can imagine the consistency with my long posts) It's got a lot of stuff in there besides training though.

Actually Reggin, it wasn't a lot of work at all....didn't take that much time. Plus, training through and through isn't ever an instantaneous fix. There is always time (more or less, depending) and effort that goes into it.

This is an example of a DRI (differential reinforcement of an incompatable behavior). Being able to cue two behaviors which are mutually exclusive to each other...is often effective to train in by putting on cue, a behavior you're trying to get rid of. (they'll still bark anyway because that's hard wired behavior...and I'd never dream of squashing a behavior like that entirely. It has it's place) But you can gain better control over it and give the dog an outlet for this very natural, necessary domestic dog behavior.

The more the dog works for getting what he needs and loves, the more advantage you have.
 

ACooper

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#37
I am going to echo some of the others and say HI *waves* Carrie!

Great post! Glad you peeked in :)
 

adojrts

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#39
A couple of weeks ago at the Rally O fun match with my student, her Dal which she has always had a barking problem. He doesn't bark in the home but he does bark at her all the time when she is working with him or when she is coming and going, once she is out of sight he stops.

While we were standing around chatting with another lady, my student had her dog with her on leash......she was chatting and he would bark. She would then immediately turn to him, make him sit/down/sit and then give him a reward. Turn back to chatting again and again he would bark. After the third time I told her, he was getting what he wanted and to top it off he was also getting a reward!!!!!! Being ignored.....bark.....her attention on him....reward.
He had her very well trained. :D
 

Doberluv

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#40
She needs to gradually increase the duration in which he keeps quiet and eventually spread out the frequency of the treats. LOL. Yes, he's an accomplished behavior chainer.
 

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