sumbissive/fearful issues including biting

Hello,

New to the boards, but here's a little info about my dog and I will explain my problem following...
Name: Vega, Breed: minurature rat terrier mixed with a terrier mix dog,
Breeder: a child who did it for a 4H project, age when I adopted her: 6 weeks old, size: 9lbs, sex: female, training: some I've done on my own, recently graduated a 6 week puppy course, vet history: current on all vaccination accept diptheria because she has severe allergic reactions to the vaccine, sees vet for regular check ups, on heartguard and feel/mite/mosquitoe routine, age: not quite 1 year, house trained, crate trained, knows the commands "sit", "leave it", and "off", and a few tricks including "up" (walk on hind legs) followed by "give fives" (paws your hand while on hind legs), and "walk" (walks on hind legs). working on commands "stay", "stand", "come", and "lay down" with very little success.

Ok well here's the problem, she was awefully young when I adopted here and I knew it. She pretty much slept, ate, and pooped for the first month I had her. After that her personality started to come out. Very submissive. She has never much liked to be touched. Petting is ok but only if its her head and back. I can mess with her ears but can't come near her feet, belly, neck (underside), or tail without her objecting. I have been working on it but as of yet it takes two of us to clip her nails (one holding her down wraped in a towel with just one foot out at a time, the other to clip as fast as possible). She fights the whole way. The only time she ever "warning nips" (snaps her teeth near but not touching you as a warning, if you dont listen then she nips but never enough to hurt) is when I touch her feet. This has always been a problem. The other problem is that she HATES certain men. It's always men. Usually larger, older men. She snaps at them but means to bite and bite hard. She growls and barks and shows her teeth. Her back hair stands up. You can tell its fear not agressiveness that brings this on. I THOUGHT I had been doing well socializing her and we had never had a problem until we started the puppy class. She's been around all types of people including the men she now seems not to like and the only person she ever growled and nipped at was the vet (also a man). She is getting WORSE not BETTER and I've been making an extra effort to socialize her around larger adult men. Its bad to the point where we can not take her to petco any longer for fear she will hurt someone she doesnt like, we have to take her to a female vet, and when we are on walks I have to pick her up and carry her past certain men for their safety! What on earth am I doing wrong? She has never been hit, kicked, abused in any way and no man has even looked at her meanly. I've been going out of my way to socialize her since I first realized there was the beginning of a problem with the first time she ever growled, at the vet. Is this just her personality? She is no threat to children, and my daughter can touch her anywhere she wants to and Vega just sits still for her. She honestly acts afraid of certain people and when I'm working on letting me touch her paws she acts like I'm going to bite them off. What can I do before this problem because too much to handle?
Meagan

ps, we have a fenced yard that I play with her in every day, several times a day. we go for walks also. she's allowed to run around the house when we're home (crated when we are not and at night, she has separation anxiety and gets very destructive and really just freaks out, she prefers her crate when she's left alone). Just forgot to add info about her exersice.

I work for a vet and the majority of the rat terriers and chihuahuas we see have fear-biting issues, especially when they're separated from their owners. It sounds like you're a great owner and are doing a good job of recognizing that this is an important issue to address. Have you tried to find a behaviorist or trainer in your area that works with problems like this? Some of them are expensive, but they'll come to your house and do an evaluation, some will even give you free advice over the phone or e-mail.

Hang in there, don't stop trying to socialize her, try not to baby her, I know this is frustrating and she may never be 100% better, but it can be improved with a lot of work and some time. She's still a bit of a puppy, and it sounds like she was taken from her litter VERY young, that can result in a lot of problems, but it isn't hopeless to try to modify her behavior.

There isnt a trainer here, just the petco classes. Theres a boarding place about 2 hrs from here that takes them for a few weeks at a time and trains them for you, but I'm not willing to do that. She is very attatched to me as an owner and I'm afraid she wouldn't do well in that kind of situation. I'll keep looking, though, someone might turn up thats not in the phone book. I'm half tempted to get a male vet and take here there offten, because they're used to dogs of all temperments, but I think it would be kind of mean to the vet! And like I said, its only certian people, not all men just some men. Usually bigger, older guys. It doesnt help that some people are just idiots around dogs.
Hey look theres a dog. Its growling and barking at me. It's hair is sticking up. I wonder what will happen if I stick my hand in its face and try to pet it.

duh.
I'll keep trying and keep doing what im doing, more tips are welcome also.
thank you
Meagan

You might want to try a little handling excercise we do at our club, called "gottcha!"
Basically you start with a very hungry dog and some very tasty treats. Say "gottcha" in a fun voice and touch a part of the dog that she doesn't mind, like the ears. As soon as you have touched give the dog a treat. Keep doing this for a while till the dog is used to you reaching and grabbing for her ears, because she knows "grabbing equals treats!" When she is in this mindset you can very slowly work down to her feet. Touch her shoulders and treat, touch her legs and treat. If you do manage to touch her feet, give her something AMAZING like some liver. This may take a long while and many hours of practice. Remember, if she seems uncomfortable and any point you are going to fast. Go back to neutral ground like the ears.

That sounds like a neat idea Bridey!

I don't agree that most Chihuahuas and Rat Terriers have this temperament. NO way. I've known and seen enough of both breeds and have Chihauhauas myself. They have lovely dispositions, are unafraid of people and are friendly and sociable to everyone. I think though, that a lot of people spoil their toy breeds and make them that way, snappy brats. They give them everything they want without earning it. They treat them like porcelin dolls. My Chi's are treated the same way, practically that my Doberman is. We all go on very long hikes together most days, sometimes over very rough terrain and they have to figure out how to scamper over, under, around fallen trees and debris.... they're not babied that much. They do sit on my lap, snuggle and get loved up, but they don't get a free ride. LOL.

That said, first, I think that any "breeder" who breeds mixed breed puppies is irresponsible and unethical, with all the mixed breed dogs languishing in shelters who need to be adopted. Any "breeder" who would give their pups away at 6 weeks, doesn't know what they're doing and doesn't care. With that, it's probable that she didn't breed for good temperament either, along with possibly being careless too, of health issues inherent in the breeds. The whole thing sounds haphazard and I doubt that she had guidance from any 4-H club. That sounds suspect to me.

It sounds like you're doing everything right and doing all you can with socializing. Of course, when you have her experience things, you don't want things to frighten her or the socializing can take a plummet. The only other thing I can think of besides the possibility of a just plain, poor temperament, is: how are you treating her in general? Are you tending to walk on egg shells and be worried about how she's going to react to things? Are you handling her with kid gloves and giving her what she wants when she wants it? Even if she's mainly reacting to other people, she may need to be shown that people, not just you, but human beings are not to be bitten, that she is not going to show us how it's done. If she needs to be groomed, she is to hold still. You don't need to scold an already fearful dog, but by having her earn things she likes, this will help show her that you control resources and you are in charge, that you keep her and her "pack" (if she had a pack) safe and secure so you can be trusted and looked up to to run things. Use reward and motivation, to associate the "bad things" with good, so they'll become good things, clipping nails or anything else she doesn't like. Make a party, with treats and happy voices, not a struggle.

She needs to continue to be socialied to try and eliminate the fear factor. Ask for a sit everytime you give her anything. I don't think this sounds like dominance aggression....probably just fear, but it's hard to say over the Internet. But it may be that she's discovered that she gets a lot of whoop-lah paid to her with this behavior. Make the dog earn her good things, treats, pats, dinner, toys, whatever she wants and likes. If she isn't caring about having attention or affection, hold back a bit and see if she'll come to you for a very special treat. Let her be a little hungry. But when she comes to you for something, turn the tables. Ask her for a sit before she gets good stuff. Kind of stick your nose up in the air. LOL. Play just a wee bit...."hard to get." Then if she isn't biting, throw out the bait. It's like playing a trout.

I think she'll always need gentle handling, no harsh discipline at all. But at the same time, I'd use the attitude, "Hey, it's no big deal. Get over it. Everything's cool." Non chalante...unconcerned. She may really be reading your mood and playing it for all it's worth. Or this might be that she just has a poor temperament and you might need a certified behaviorist to help.

Keep us posted. It sounds like you have a challenge on your hands because this is not typical puppy temperament, even if taken at 6 weeks, I don't think. Or if that's the cause, then it sounds pretty extreme.

I think Vega needs a sharp reminder that it's completely inappropriate to growl, nip, bite and otherwise indicate she'd like to hurt human beings. There are training books that tell you how to fit and use a choke chain correctly - that's the fastest, kindest way to let Vega know what's expected of her.

>Breeder: a child who did it for a 4H project<

That's a heck of a project.

This dog has some MAJOR fear issues and under developed social adeptness. Using harsh methods or choke chains could put her over the edge and totally ruin her. I strongly advise against corrections, but rather do things to build confidence. There are games you can play and activities that involve skill (jumping, as in agility) builds confidence. Confidence goes a long way to improving fear in an animal and by jerking on a choke chain and squashing the dog, you'll not teach it anything. The way to help solve fear biting issues is an around about way, by building trust in you and having the dog get so it looks up to you as it's provider of all good things, it's safety and it's resources. It is also you who gives praise and love for GOOD BEHAVIOR and you who witholds reward for undesireable behavior. The dog will work for reward much better than working to avoid punishment. This is what makes a healthy dog/human relationship, the most important training tool of all. This is what makes you be the dog's leader or "alpha."

If you impliment the Nothing in Life is Free training concept, I think you'll see the dog start seeing you as the guide, rather than the dog being the one in charge.

http://www.sspca.org/Dogs_TANSTAAFL.html

What makes you think she has major fear 'issues'? She nips, she bites, she dislikes being touched. How's that equal fear? Now, I'd understand if she had behaviors like submissive urination, cringing, attempts to flee or hide. But everything she does seems pretty open to interpretation.

btw, a dog who bites family and can't be taken outside the home without threatening strangers is already ruined. How much worse can it get? The idea is to redeem the dog.

And the fact that she was taken from her littermates too early. She has not learned normal social skills. She probably was raised outside of the family home and had no exposure to people. She is objecting to normal things that puppies are usually fine with. Puppies are normally eager to be touched and loved. I am reading avoidance and defense behavior which coincides with fear. I also see a strong fight or flight drive going on with the things that the poster is trying to do with the dog; clip nails and while being held down with a towel wrapped around it. It can't take flight, so the only option is fight. The dog is displaying this quite reactively in other examples.

It is difficult to see for sure over the Internet, but at any rate, whatever the cause, aggression is never used to cure aggression. There are books and lots of info on the Internet about treating aggression. I don't know that this is true aggression, but rather a defense reaction, albeit, to our way of thinking, irrational.

The pup could have a medical problem going on and perhaps should be examined by a vet. It's important to find out the cause and UNDERSTAND where this pup is coming from before trying to fix the problem, so you know what tools to use. What I suggested is a general type thing, but I would think it wise to get a ceritfied behaviorist with a good reputation to come observe the pup at home.

The thing is, you can stop or squelch the biting by choke chain corrections, but you're not getting rid of her REASON to bite. By working through it with her, you can eliminate her reason to bite. Yes, she needs to know who is in charge because that brings on a sense of security and it also lets her know that biting is not necessary.

Simply controlling a behavior like that without getting at the underlying issue, whatever that may be, can produce a time bomb waiting to go off at some later time. It can produce an unpredicable and temporary fix.

A properly used choke chain is not aggression.

Good training is not going to be a temporary fix. I agree, you can do a mickey mouse job of training a dog while using a choke chain, but it's even more common to see people do a mickey mouse job while using treats and distractions. Talk about evading the 'underlying issues.' If your dog is biting and threatening, focusing on the positive and doing a happy voice reward whenever he manages to sit on command is the epitome of a surface solution.

Well, that's not all there is to positive training.

Firstly, I already stated that I dont use harsh corrections on her. She's never been hit, I've never used nor feel she needs a choke collar, or any physically harmful correction of any kind. I stated she is seen by a vet regularily for check ups. A vet told me it was submissive. She does submissive wetting quite frequently around strangers, she cowers and hides and goes belly up to anything that moves. Her tail goes between her legs any time something bigger than a mouse approaches her. She's a submissive dog. Not in any way aggressive. I agreed she was adopted out too early, but the owners said simply said if I didnt buy her someone else would and frankly didnt seem to care either way. I know they weren't good breeders and yeah, I probably should have walked away, but I didnt and that's that. Many people breed animals for 4-h projects. I've seen mostly hamsters, guinea pigs, rabbits, and mice more frequently that dogs or cats, but you do run across a couple litters at the county fairs that were from 4-H'ers. I honestly think it'd teach the kids more to foster an already-in-need animaly so it can be adopted, but thats not under my control. Yes I ADMIT I DID EVERYTHING WRONG IN GOING ABOUT GETTING A DOG, but I got her and I'm determined to do everything I can to help her.
That being said, she has been socialized. She goes everywhere with me...camping, petco, fishing, my parents house, my in-laws house, my friend's houses... its not that she's been locked up in a shed in my back yard. She's a house dog, has been around people since I got her and was raised when she as born in their kitchen, so they told me. Its her personality that she doesnt much like to be touched. She loves to come to ME and touch ME but she doesnt like my hands going too far without her saying its ok. She loves to be petted, just not in certain places. She never has. I do a "touch the dog" routine with her. I start where she's comfortable and give her treats when she "plays" along, when she's happy to have the attention. I work my way towards where she doesnt so much like it and only move on when i feel she's comfortable. She gets treats when she behaves and lets me, and when she doesnt, we stop. I'm not going to push her into it. We're making progress, but very slowly. Here's what I am doing when we are confronted with someone she DOESNT like....
She starts barking and growling at someone she sees. I say NO and I ask the person to stay where they are and I command Vega to sit. When she does she gets praised. If she continues to bark or growl, I command her "quiet". If she does, she gets praised. If she does not, I command "look at me". She always looks at me when I ask her to, and this is usually enough to get her to calm down. I try to project calmness on her by talking calmly, slowly, and in a low voice and I let her know I'm ok with this person by greeting them, talking to them, and treating the whole situation calmly. If she remains calm, I ask the person to give her a treat. If vega is calm when the person approaches to give her the treat, I ask them to pet her head, call her good girl, and then walk away. No big deal, just a common meeting the same with any other person. To be honest, sometimes she just won't allow that person to come any closer. I take that as her clue that thigns aren't going well, I tell her NO and we walk away, I ignore her. Her bad behavior is not doted upon. She just simply gets ignored. If someone comes too close and she snaps I take her muzzle gently in my hands, direct her head so she's looking me in the eye and I say NO BAD DOG and then continue what I was doing. I dont want to give her attention for her bad behavior.
And what the heck am I suppose to do, not clip her nails? She stops fighting and lays quiet after the first one or two, once she realizes its not going to hurt her, but getting her to allow those first few clips TAKES a towel wraped around her. Not her head mind you, I'm not afraid she's going to bite me. I just have to keep her still long enough to get them clipped. Afterward she gets a very VERY good treat, last time it was a chunk of rib meat. Its the only time she gets people food. It has to be done, and afterward we play and she seems to have forgotten all about it. We dont hurt her, and she doesnt hurt us, she just doesnt like the idea until she knows its not something to be afraid of.
If I'm doing something HORRIBLY wrong, let me know but I dont believe my methods of trying to correct this probelm are causing it to be worse. I see some progress, just very SLOW progress.
I appolagize for being defensive, but I was offended by some of the posts and felt the need to explain myself further. Shes not aggressive. Shes not locked away from people. Shes not been abused. She just needs more than some dogs do, and I'm trying to give it to her.
Meagan

ps: not to say that when i start clipper her nails she doesnt fight like a bull and try to nip me, just saying that once she's calmed down she's ok. Sometimes that takes a while. Also, with the people she just simply will not accept, there seems to be more and more cropping up, instead of getting fewer. That makes me believe she's getting worse not better. With people she knows shes getting better allowing more touch. I do not feel her to be a danger to any of us, but am worried about the poor friendly big guy she happens to come along that really DOES get bit...and worried about what kind of law suit that will bring. Maybe I SHOULD just keep her in more controlled environments, like in our own house. She seems to be more comfortable and less fearful when she knows where she is. let me hear your thoughts on this.
btw its never women or children. She adores children and women both. Never fearful around them nor barks at them. She'll run up to them, let them pet her..no make that BEG them to pet her! She loves playing with all the neighborhood kids in our fenced yard and I have no fear for their safety. She's wonderful with my own daughter as well. my DAUGHTER can touch her anywhere she wants and Vega just licks her face and doesnt bat an eyelash, its just when adults try to i.e. pick up her feet...

Well, it sounds like you have it all under control.

I think you're doing a commendable job, HH. And not a one of us hasn't been at least tempted by the puppy-in-the-box. If you don't instantly fall in love with a six week old rat terrier mix, I think that qualifies you as legally dead. You did a wonderful thing by opening your heart and home to a puppy, no matter where she came from. She didn't get to pick her parents or where she'd be born, so I'm glad she managed to pick YOU!

You're doing everything by the book, which is awesome. Lots of folks in your situation give up or resort to things like choke chains and shock collars--I see it all the time--and the dogs are the ones who suffer. Your methods and thinking are more than sound. You've got a challenging pup, and they haven't quite managed to write the book that covers every situation. You've gotten some excellent ideas from Doberluv, so maybe I can just add to it.

My first thought is to allow her some breathing room when it comes to growling. You're doing a fabulous job as a reactive owner by listening and responding to her. Growling alone is not an aggressive behavior. It's a communication, just like her body language. I think it may help for you to acknowledge this message as well as you do with the others. I wouldn't discourage growling in a fearful dog until the source of the fear has been dealt with and the reason for growling in the first place has been removed. (I personally thank my lucky stars when a dog growls at me. It means he's still willing to communicate. A dog who's growling hasn't yet gone to the next step--biting!) Let her know that you hear and accept her communication, but if she escalates to barking or stiffening, go ahead and put her on a "sit". Tell her, "It's fine that you feel that way, but you aren't to act on it." This may help a lot as you work to desensitize her. Keep recognizing her communications and communicate back. You have to continue to cultivate a two-way relationship in order to make her comfortable. You're doing a wonderful job of that already, so keep it up!

My next thought is just something I've picked up from working with fear responses over the years, and I think it might help you. If someone's approaching that you know will make her uncomfortable, have her sit on the side of the path and step in between her and the "boogeyman". It sounds like you may be doing this to some extent already, so I just want to bring it to the front of your mind. This will serve a couple of purposes. First, it will physically block the "offending" party from getting to your dog. She'll understand and appreciate that. (Believe me, I know where you're coming from. I believe the instinct to pet dogs is so strong in some people that it completely shorts out their logic center. I've walked more than one dog through the park, working on "long-distance" socialization, told people, "Please don't pet him, he doesn't do well with strangers," and watched them nod in understanding as they continued to reach down to pet the dog!!) Second, this will serve to build up her confidence by demonstrating your confidence. Show her that you're willing to go first into a situation she finds uncomfortable. She'll start to think along the lines of, "Well, mom (assuming gender, sorry) did that, and she came out fine. Maybe it's not as bad as I thought."

Other than those thoughts, I think you're doing an excellent job so far. Again, I'm glad your pup found you because few others would be willing to go through the "trouble" of taking care of her. Please keep us updated and let us know how she progresses!

First I'd like to appologize if my last post seemed a little snippy. I didnt mean it that way. Its just very frustrating for me. I got a little defensive, also, and I addmit it probably wasn't the best reply I could have wrote had I given myself time to cool down! lol Consider it my parental insticts that when it seems like she's being called a "bad dog" I want to scream "MY BAD DOG CAN BEAT UP YOUR HONOR DOG!" lol. Also I want to take the time to thank EVERYONE for their suggestions. I respect peoples oppinions and am glad for so many different veiw points on this subject. The more viewpoints that are presented, the more opptions I have to choose from as to what I feel would work best for my situation. Thank you everyone and I will keep you updated on how she's doing as we go. BTW we went for a walk the other day and she didn't growl a sigle time at ANYONE. That's a rare occurance! Then again no one tried to approach us either, but still, its good for her.
Meagan

I had a Terrier when I was a kid - from just before I turned four until I was twenty actually. Mickey was just one of those dogs who did NOT like strangers - and wasn't too fond of most people she met either, lol! We loved her; she loved us and we just kept her away from people she didn't know - and most she did. It was easier after we got Purdue, the German Shepherd. He ran interference for her, and people were a lot less apt to approach simply because there was a German Shepherd standing over her! It also mellowed her out a bit - maybe not having ALL the responsibility for taking care of us on her little back.

The 'moral' of the story? Sometimes you just have to work within the parameters of your dog's personality. Every dog isn't a tail-wagging, extroverted, glad-to-meetcha, people-pup.

If you'll listen to CreatureTeacher especially, and work with your dog's unique personality, you'll end up with the best possible outcome.

Renee, I LOVE what you said..sometimes having to 'work within the parameter's of your dog's personality'. Obtaining excellent training advice, but keeping in mind that not EVERY dog on the planet is going to respond in the exact way. Creature Teacher and Doberluv give the facts, and you work from there.....EXCELLENT. Some people just quote the 'rules' without understanding the variables, and I find those people frustrating. (unlike Emma and Doberluv...they must just read books or something) Good luck HH...sounds like you are truly dedicated!

Regarding people who insist on petting....I have the meanest cat alive, and always have asked people NOT to touch her. I can't tell you how many times someone has said 'oh, but I'm good with animals' as they continue to reach on down...DUH...as if I don't know what the heck I'm talking about. They always regret it. If someone asked me not to touch their dog...why would I question that they know this is a bad idea???????????????????? people are strange sometimes..LOL