Your Definition of Ethics

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summitview said:
Commenting heavily on areas one is not experienced or educated in really irks me.
Yep, it does, doesn't it? Hi Summit. I like your posts so far.
 

JFrick

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summitview said:
It's very sad to me that you feel this way and edited by a mod = no name calling Comparing dogs to humans as you've done doesn't work, sorry. Two totally different topics. We aren't euthanizing people by the thousands.
:D
Preach all you want, your waisting your time trying to change my opinion.
 

JFrick

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sportingdogs said:
The owner does not "win a title"...the DOG does. Responsible breeders don't breed to "get the perfect dog"..b/c there is no such thing. Greed?? Let's talk about GREED: backyard breeders counting the cash as it rolls in on their untested, untitled, ill-temperemented (perhaps) Fluff and Muff and then doing it again "next year" because it was just so much fun and they need a new widescreen; commercial breeders who actually DO breed FOR PROFIT...a business...do you think these people care about the IDEAL dog?? Heavens, no!!
So I guess the dogs wake up one day and say "I think I'll start showing myself". Is there not money involved with dog shows? Greed goes with anything involving money. Not to mention a blue ribbon.....

sportingdogs said:
Showing and breeding well-bred dogs is NOT about GREED. Please speak only of that which you know something about. Apparently you know nothing about showing and proper breeding.
In my opinion, yes it is GREED......Your right, I know nothing, nothing at all.:rolleyes:
 

JFrick

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sportingdogs said:
I respectfully disagree with you. Pish, tosh...the people that dump their dogs in shelters don't know the FIRST THING about breed standards...they don't care about "the perfect dog"....that is BS...dogs get dumped in shelters because people buy/adopt on impulse and get more than they bargained for...or they know NOTHING about dog behavior and cannot handle an unruly teenage puppy, or dammit, they just don't CARE about the dog anymore. It has NOTHING to do with show quality dogs, or dogs not being "good enough" for some...
Please re-read what I posted. My comment about that was how people will spend over a thousand dollars on a purebred dog just so they can have a purebred. To these people, mutts are not good enough to adopt. Instead they have to have a "show quality" dog.
 
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sportingdogs said:
Statistics show that it IS those one-time breeders (your "lazy guy") that cumulatively make up the GREATEST population of puppies out there. Sure, ONE guy with an accidental (or out of ignorance) litter of puppies is a drop in the bucket...but multiply that by millions (look at the big picture)..and you've got a LOT OF DOGS. For every responsible owner/breeder, I can show you 20 people that have casually had a litter and sold through newspaper ads to the first caller or gave away without screening..maybe it was five years ago, maybe it was last week, or maybe they have a litter due next month; point is, THEY are the problem...these "breeders" and their ignorant buyers.
I simply don't believe that. You say to look at the big picture, but I don't think that's useful. The biggest picture is worldwide, and it's obviously a waste to pour energy into say, education, in countries too poor to give a ****. If you skew the picture down to the US, you're still too large since it's a huge country and different areas have different needs. For years now, I've heard people talk about education. Well, in my region, at least, there are not many people who either haven't gotten or haven't heeded the neutering message that's been rammed down our throats for 20 years. Very few people have accidental litters now in the Northeast - the dogs are neutered and besides, they just don't get out. Most 'excess' dogs are being produced by intent for cash. This is probably different in other areas of the country, but where I live - where the majority of so-called overpopulation is the result of breeding for money in a rabbit hutch somewhere in Pennsylvania or Kansas, or the result of breeding for machismo in a trailer park or ghetto - we don't need education about spay/neuter, we need education about and enforcement of existing laws against puppy millers and dangerous dogs.
 
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savethebulliedbreeds

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I know, I know, I know. Lets all stop breeding dogs PERIOD! That should make a couple people in these forums happy. And then we wouldn't have to have these discussions.
 

JFrick

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savethebulliedbreeds said:
I know, I know, I know. Lets all stop breeding dogs PERIOD! That should make a couple people in these forums happy. And then we wouldn't have to have these discussions.
Haha....

These really aren't discussions. It's nothing more than one or two people trying to prove that they are all knowing and change everyones beliefs to their own. I just love getting these kinds of people all wound up.

By the way, most of my comments in this thread were only intended to get a select few that are participating all wound up so we can all see their true selves. Apparently one participant has sunk to the level of name calling. :p I don't believe half of what I said.......:D To all the REAL Chaz members that discuss things and help others instead of automatically attacking people b/c of what they are doing or believe, I apologize for what I have said. To the people that my comments were directed at, get a life, you get too worked up too easily and this thread proves it.
 

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savethebulliedbreeds said:
I know, I know, I know. Lets all stop breeding dogs PERIOD! That should make a couple people in these forums happy. And then we wouldn't have to have these discussions.
I don’t breed, never did and never plan too. Just to make this clear.

I personally don’t think breeding should stop, but I do think it should be a lot harder to breed two dogs then just mating bitch X to stud X. Each and every puppy should be plan way ahead of time, doing whatever it takes to prove your mating pair are breed worthy.

-Titling
-Genetic testing
-Having a one or two GREAT mentors
-Great grasp and understanding of your breed
-Being prepared financially, mentally, knowledgably
-Having a list of owner prospects before your litter is planed
-Willing to take back every puppy that leaves your home if new owners are unable to keep them. (keeping track of all of them their entire life)
-Be part of a rescue program

These are but a few things I can think of. If everyone had a strict belief in their breeding program then there wouldn’t be a overpopulation of dogs as we see today.
 
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Truthfully, I've seen some of the best dogs bred by some of the old farmers who know what they are looking for in a working dog. They know what they want in a dog; working ability and willingness, soundness, hardiness, intelligence, and most of them - even though they would never admit it - also love the beauty of their dogs. You find an old livestock farmer like that and you will see dogs that haven't been corrupted by show fashion and are sound. You won't see German Shepherds with sloped rears. You won't see oversized dogs with bad joints. You won't see shy dogs or fearful dogs or aggressive dogs - you'll see confident dogs.

But it's getting harder and harder to find those old fashioned livestock farmers now . . . And even when you do, it's hard to get them to part with a pup!
 

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Hi, first post. Have to say after reading the forums I actually wanted to join based on just a few threads, including this one!

I would say at this point in time I'd have to say an ethical breeder is someone who's breeding to better the breed and breeding to either work or show the dogs.. I have to agree, there just doesn't seem to be any argument to me that seems logical towards breeding pets for pets.. As so many have said, there are just already too many dogs going unloved and unwanted in favour of the cute puppies who're going to have health problems in the future and be booted out in favour of another cute puppy from the breeder down the road..

But I would to some extent like to blame pet owners as well as BYBs, because the trend seems to have developed to have pets who are..
- toys for themselves or their kids
- fads (purse dogs for example)
- intimidaters (warrented reputation or not, some dogs have it and these are wanted to inspire fear in others)
- accessories (elitists who want an expensive purebred dog just to look good)

All of these people are the kind of folks good, ethical breeders would not allow to have a puppy of theirs no matter what the price, and it is for these people whom the BYB exists.. Stopping breeding isn't an answer (and I don't think it was said seriously anyways) but stopping people wanting dogs for these purposes, or at the very least, stopping people catering for them is a must.
 

MomOf7

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summitview said:
Pedigree research involving health is crucial. There are some genetic diseases in which dogs can be carriers but not have the actual problem themselves (PRCD for example). Your line could breed clear for generations, but the dogs might be carriers. If you breed these dogs to the wrong pedigree, you can produce effected pups.

You're right, there is nothing wrong with a mutt. I've fostered and rescued many, and currently own one. However, breeding mutts ("designer mixes") is not ethical. There's no real reason to do it other than to produce cute pups to sell, which is wrong.

And as for your last two sentences - let me say I'm glad.
I agree completely.
I had a female I paid 1200 for that ended up with retinal folds. She can see fine and probably wont effect her till she is much much older like 7 years old or more. I could have bred her anyways and had all the pups eyes tested before the left home but being responsible I gave her to another kennel where she is being trained then sold as a gun dog. The trainer is a friend of mine and is so impressed with her abilities that he got her eyes re checked to make sure.
Bottom line you should never take the chance on breeding a dog that cannot pass its certifications. There are so many other dogs to consider to breed to that will and have passed thier certifications. Why take the chance if you dont have to?
What if and heaven forbid you pass down the bad traits that could have been avoided better by not breeding a dog effected.


Greed? Let me tell you if I can break even on a litter I am happy.
A puppy is only worth what someone will pay for it. Period.
I dont care about making money...if I do great! If I dont thats ok too.
Breeding and competing with my dogs is a passion. I love taking my dogs to the fields and training them and watching them work with me. The competitions to me are fun...stressful at times but fun! I just got back from a 3 day test we spent around $500. Next weekend I have another one. Then the weekend after that..so on and so forth. Its great to get out with like minded folks, talk dogs, and share experiences. There are a great number of people who do competitions and do not breed.
Dont knock it untill you learn more and try it. There is no greater feeling then having a dog who does great work and produces pups that are great workers and watching them grow and learn.

JFrick,
How asinine is that? To post on a topic that is a passionate one only to stir the pot. Tisk tisk! If thats how you get your enjoyment how sad is that?
NO one here knows everything. Most people who breed have goals and standards. Not everyone shares the same goals and standards. If we all were the same how boring would this world be? I like threads like this when they are discussed like adults and not like children. Its interesting to see the difference in goals and standards each person has.


I think I covered what I read and wanted to comment on.
 

JFrick

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MomOf7 said:
JFrick,
How asinine is that? To post on a topic that is a passionate one only to stir the pot. Tisk tisk! If thats how you get your enjoyment how sad is that?
NO one here knows everything. Most people who breed have goals and standards. Not everyone shares the same goals and standards. If we all were the same how boring would this world be? I like threads like this when they are discussed like adults and not like children. Its interesting to see the difference in goals and standards each person has.
Hey, I apologized. Summit is the one that "stir's the pot" every chance she gets. I was just doing the same to her, nothing more.

I think it's sad that people get worked up so easily on an internet message board.
 
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savethebulliedbreeds

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Originally Posted by savethebulliedbreeds
I know, I know, I know. Lets all stop breeding dogs PERIOD! That should make a couple people in these forums happy. And then we wouldn't have to have these discussions.
It was a joke.:D :p
 

ihartgonzo

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JFrick said:
I think it's sad that people get worked up so easily on an internet message board.
But, how much sadder is it that you find enjoyment in arguing just to argue? Then point fingers at Summit, very childishly? How are you ANY better than her, if not worse? (and I am not saying that what she believes is wrong, at all.) I'm sorry if those of us who have seen, first-hand, the casualties of stupid breeders feel strongly about what we've seen. You might feel the same if so many of the innocent homeless dogs you've spent time cleaning, feeding, and walking had been euthanized for lack of homes. Or if you saw a litter of Pit Bull puppies being euthanized on the spot because their horrible excuse for an owner bred their fighting dogs and the puppies temperaments would just be too unstable. I really encourage you to get involved in rescue, if you are a dog lover and you do not feel strongly about this issue.

Seriously, I find everyone's opinions intriguing to some extent, and I like reading what people feel on this issue. I feel that BYB's produce the vast majority of excess, unwanted dogs, period. Think of every person (or even half of dog owners) breeding their "pet", unproven dogs, just for fun... that would equal an average of 4+ dogs per family, which just does not work out. A GOOD breeder will not allow their puppies to end up being passed around or in a shelter, period. If everyone was a consciencious breeder, there wouldn't be an overpopulation, IMO.
 
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lunar said:
Hi, first post. Have to say after reading the forums I actually wanted to join based on just a few threads, including this one!

I would say at this point in time I'd have to say an ethical breeder is someone who's breeding to better the breed and breeding to either work or show the dogs.. I have to agree, there just doesn't seem to be any argument to me that seems logical towards breeding pets for pets.. As so many have said, there are just already too many dogs going unloved and unwanted in favour of the cute puppies who're going to have health problems in the future and be booted out in favour of another cute puppy from the breeder down the road..

But I would to some extent like to blame pet owners as well as BYBs, because the trend seems to have developed to have pets who are..
- toys for themselves or their kids
- fads (purse dogs for example)
- intimidaters (warrented reputation or not, some dogs have it and these are wanted to inspire fear in others)
- accessories (elitists who want an expensive purebred dog just to look good)

All of these people are the kind of folks good, ethical breeders would not allow to have a puppy of theirs no matter what the price, and it is for these people whom the BYB exists.. Stopping breeding isn't an answer (and I don't think it was said seriously anyways) but stopping people wanting dogs for these purposes, or at the very least, stopping people catering for them is a must.
EXCELLENT first post, Lunar! Hope to see more of this kind of thought and presentation :)
 
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savethebulliedbreeds

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I agree that bybs and puppy mills add greatly to the population of homeless dogs. BUT, ALL BREEDERS, even ethical, responsible breeder add to the problem whether they like it or not. Now, I am not saying that I am against breeders. So please don't think that is what I am saying. I am a breeder myself. But we all contribute to the population problem. Even if we screen our applicants and the puppies are placed in forever homes those puppies still take up potential homes for older dogs that could be adopted from shelters. If it is our responsibility to help these dogs then lets do so. I, for example, would give up a litter a year (I only have one or two litters) so that more homes would be available to other dogs and therefore, not only have I helped out with the overpopulation problem (a tiny bit), but those 1-4 dogs (I breed poms and chis) that weren't born may have opened up 1-4 homes that may adopt a dog that IS already born and is need of a home. Im not sure if what I said came out right but I hope you get the point. Sometimes if their is a problem, those of us that are good breeders need to make up for bad breeders mistakes.
 
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