Who are you buying your puppy from?

mmorlino

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#41
its not.. So far I have yet to find a dog in the local shelters that came from a good breeder. And its very very rare to have a 'good' breeder's dog in rescue. (usually its a case of the breeder having been out of breeding and is old, infirm etc and can't take the dog back.. though I have heard of them paying for the dog's costs whilst in rescue)

To me if you are breeding the same sorts of dogs that are dying in shelters then you aren't a good breeder. (ie what is special about your dogs...)
Ok, if it's not a random statistic then show me your references - specifically, studies done by reputable sources.

No, you don't have to... I'm "on your side". However, it really gets on my nerves when people try to prove their point by typing "99.9%" ("that's a big number so it must prove my point!") and not backing it up by studies (journals) done by reputable sources.
 

Dekka

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#42
Ok, if it's not a random statistic then show me your references - specifically, studies done by reputable sources.

No, you don't have to... I'm "on your side". However, it really gets on my nerves when people try to prove their point by typing "99.9%" ("that's a big number so it must prove my point!") and not backing it up by studies (journals) done by reputable sources.
hi.. read what i said.. ime. Those are from my observable data. My experiences in rescue/breed clubs/local shelters...

by definition if the dogs are ending up in shelters and rescues they are not from good breeders by and large. (yes things happen.... but as a breeder you need to do your utmost to make sure you sell to ppl who will return the dog and not dump it, so that should be a very small number)
 

mmorlino

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#43
hi.. read what i said.. ime.
You mean this?

Just so you know 99.9999 of all dogs in shelters and rescues came from byb.
You may want to go back and clarify that 99.9% of the dog that YOU have seen have come from BYB and that it is from your "observable data".

by definition if the dogs are ending up in shelters and rescues they are not from good breeders...
And what definition might that be? I think you're misusing the word "definition". When used properly, people use it when referring to the dictionary (or other reputable sources).

but as a breeder you need to do your utmost to make sure you sell to ppl who will return the dog and not dump it, so that should be a very small number)
I agree that breeders should do their utmost to sell to good people, but let's be fair here. You cannot fault the breeder for someone else dumping their dog in a shelter. That's unfair at best.
 

mmorlino

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#44
I should add to my previous post about what kind of breeder I am that I also microchip my puppies. I list the new owner at the primary contact and myself as the secondary. In case the new owner every decided to dump MY puppy at a shelter then the shelter will contact me and I can go and rescue my little one.

I've never had this happen but have heard of horror stories!
 
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#45
The point of a breeder putting titles on their dogs - whether they are conformation titles, sports titles, obedience titles, therapy dog certifications, CGCs even - means that some third party judged the dogs to be "good" based on some larger standard.

Example - I like chihuahuas, but even when I go to a dog show, there are some individuals that I like more than others. Sometimes the ones that I like don't win, maybe they have some fault or something that I didn't notice, that the judge - a person with much more expertise than myself, or arguably, you - knew was out of standard. Just because the chi I like is pretty, doesn't mean he's a good example of the breed. And it doesn't mean he should be bred.

Personally, if I were to buy a dog from a breeder, I wouldn't care if it had conformation titles. But if I want a pet dog I want to know that this breeder's dogs have a good pet dog temperment, which would be proven by a TDI or CGC certification. Many people - even breeders - think that chis should be aloof and maybe even aggressive toward strangers; they're a "one person dog." So if I asked that breeder if the dogs' temperment is standard, they'd say it was, because in their interpretation it would be; but when judged against a standard - TDI or CGC - the dog wouldn't pass and I wouldn't buy from that breeder.

I do think it's great that you do health checks, that's definately another thing I would look for in a breeder; I certainly wouldn't say that you're a "bad breeder." But the world is not divided by good breeders and bad breeders, either.
 

mmorlino

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#46
The point of a breeder putting titles on their dogs - whether they are conformation titles, sports titles, obedience titles, therapy dog certifications, CGCs even - means that some third party judged the dogs to be "good" based on some larger standard.

Example - I like chihuahuas, but even when I go to a dog show, there are some individuals that I like more than others. Sometimes the ones that I like don't win, maybe they have some fault or something that I didn't notice, that the judge - a person with much more expertise than myself, or arguably, you - knew was out of standard. Just because the chi I like is pretty, doesn't mean he's a good example of the breed. And it doesn't mean he should be bred.

Personally, if I were to buy a dog from a breeder, I wouldn't care if it had conformation titles. But if I want a pet dog I want to know that this breeder's dogs have a good pet dog temperment, which would be proven by a TDI or CGC certification. Many people - even breeders - think that chis should be aloof and maybe even aggressive toward strangers; they're a "one person dog." So if I asked that breeder if the dogs' temperment is standard, they'd say it was, because in their interpretation it would be; but when judged against a standard - TDI or CGC - the dog wouldn't pass and I wouldn't buy from that breeder.

I do think it's great that you do health checks, that's definately another thing I would look for in a breeder; I certainly wouldn't say that you're a "bad breeder." But the world is not divided by good breeders and bad breeders, either.
I totally agree and completely understand your point of view! I will be showing and am currently keeping back a potential show female from one of my dogs (she's 8 days old now!). I have bred her from my own lines - she is the third generation.

You hit the nail on the head - and this was my point - that the world is not divided into good and bad breeders. But things like the original post and many other similar articles try to pack all breeders who do this, or this, or that into a group. If you have more than 5 litters a year you're a commercial or puppy mill. If you don't belong to a club then you're a BYB and so on.

I am certainly not perfect -- I have so much to learn every day! But that is my goal - to keep on learning and improving this amazing breed!
 

Dekka

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#47
a defintion does not have to be dictionary based.

It can be community based (like educated dog ppl... are going to define (root word for definition) terms differently than the average joe)

IME= in my experience.

So it would be valid to you if I wrote down numbers worked out the sd etc and put it up on the net as a study? Really ....

None of this has anything to do with you as a breeder. So I have no idea why you are so defensive. I don't show conformation with my JRTs for the most part. But they do 'prove' themsleves in many other ways. The whippets do show in conformation, but that is because that is the deal with the club/breeder when we got them. I am far more interested in their racing ability and trainability when it comes to 'proving' them. (of course health and temperament being paramount in any breed)
 

mmorlino

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#48
None of this has anything to do with you as a breeder. So I have no idea why you are so defensive.
My apologizing for coming off as defensive, I sure didn't mean to! In my original post (before I replied to you) I was stating what kind of breeder I am. When you mentioned that breeders should do their utmost to make sure their puppies never end up in a shelter, it reminded me of adding the microchip thing. It was not a defensive measure.

a defintion does not have to be dictionary based. [/QUOTE

As I stated, it can be from other reputable sources. However, it can't be based off someone's random thought, either. But you don't even list this definition that you're referring to. So, what is it?

So it would be valid to you if I wrote down numbers worked out the sd etc and put it up on the net as a study? Really ....
Yes! Or AT LEAST state that it is IN YOUR OPINION in the original post! You never state that in the original post. You only stated it after I "got it out of you".

In your original post where you use this random statistic you are insulting a person, telling them what they're doing is wrong, and, I would hope, trying to "convert" them to do the RIGHT thing, correct?

Then you are taking two steps back by pulling out a random statistic - one in which you list no basis for (you don't even say it's in your opinion!). How is this person supposed to find you trustworthy if you are, from the standpoint of the original post, "making stuff up" just to belittle them?

I once had a conversation with a person on Craiglist who posted a terribly hateful post in the Community: Pet section. They posted it towards back yard breeders. I e-mailed them and told them that I agree with their point of view, but I did not think that the should be posting in such a manner, simply because it is NOT helping the puppies by insulting and belittling the people breeding them. Instead you should help to EDUCATE these people to help them make the right decision. If you want them to be like you and think like you, you have to be someone they would WANT to be and think like. But if you go in, guns a blazing, insulting them and saying terrible things to them, why would they want to be like you? She responded with (paraphrasing, leaving out her choice words), "Why should I bow down to these terrible people. All I care about are the puppies." I asked her how she's helping the puppies by doing this, and she never responded.

So, you see what I mean - if we WANT to help reduce the numbers of puppies produced by BYB then we need to help to educate them. And we do not educate them by insulting them, beating them down with words, and throwing out large, random statistics with no basis in anything but your own mind (and again, you should clarify that in the original post - there's a handy edit button, I believe).
 

Dekka

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#49
hmm i think you need to read some of the old posts around here ;)

(oh and atm i don't mircochip due to the various (published) studies linking them to cancerous growths)
 

xpaeanx

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#50
I'll add my personal observations as well.

I often visit the local shelters and browse petfinder. It is on the very rare occasion that I even see a "purebred" dog up for adoption, and those that are are always very much out of breed standard.

Now on Craigslist "purebreds" do pop up A LOT more often. However, the opening sentence is something along the lines of "I bought this puppy from a local puppy store about a month ago and now realize I have no time to care for it."
 

olla86

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#51
There has been alot of disscusion on this forum as to how are breeders classified and what makes them what they are anyways I found a website yesterday explaining how breeders are classified


Hobby Breeder : A breed fancier who usually has only one breed but may have two follows a breeding plan in efforts to preserve and protect the breed they are raising produces from none to five litters per year breeds only when a litter will enchance the breed and breeding program raises the puppies with pleanty of enviromental and human contact has a contract that protects the breeder, dog, and buyer runs a small clean kennel screens breeding stock to eliminate heredity defects from the breed works with a breed club or kennel club to promote and protect the breed and cares that each and every puppy is placed in the best home possible

Back Yard Breeder (BYB) : Dog owner whos pet either gets bred by accident or who breeds on purpose for a variety of reasons usually ingnorant of the breed standard, genetics, behavior, and good health practices byb's can easily become a commercial breeder or a puppymill

Commercial Breeder : Usually has several breeds of dogs with profit as a primary motive dogs may be healty or not and kennel may be clean or not dogs probably not selected for resembalance to the breed standard or for good temperment most sell to pet shops or brokers who sell to pet stores

Brooker : Buys puppies from a commercial kennel and sells to retail outlets ship pups by the crate load on arilines or by truckload throughout the country must be licensed by USDA and must abide by the shipping regulations in the animal welfare act even though they are required to be licensed some are not and that is against the law

Bunchers : Collect dogs of unknown origin for sale to labratories or other buncers considered much lower on the evolutinary scale because of much suspiscion that they buy stolen pets, collect "free" pets, and adopt unwanted pets from animal shelters for research at veternarian colleges and industrial research labs

Puppymill (pm) : Breeder who produces pups hand over fist with no breeding program little attention to puppy placement and poor health and socillization practices may or may not be dirty but is usually overcrowded and dogs may be neglected or abused because the breeder can't properly handle the amount of dogs they have often put down hobby breeders to make a sale

This website would be helpful to prospective puppy owners in deciding who they should buy their puppy from and how to tell who they are buying there pup from I am also going to list the website it would be great to check it out and it has some great information on buying from petstores and why it is not a good idea ;)

Dog Owner's Guide: What is a Puppy Mill?
Very intresting classification and very useful site! Thanks a lot!
 

KhayNette

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#52
I don't plan on buying a puppy, I see so many puppies just being given away that I worry about what will happen to them, so when we're ready for a puppy i am going to take one of the "free" ones so I know at least one will be safe and fixed. I could imagine that any puppy who is paid for has more worth to the average crap owner then one who just came free. They get the free puppy because it's just so cute and it's free! then realise a puppy grows, pees, chews, and actually costs them money then don't want it anymore. It's sad :-(
 
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#53
I don't plan on buying a puppy, I see so many puppies just being given away that I worry about what will happen to them, so when we're ready for a puppy i am going to take one of the "free" ones so I know at least one will be safe and fixed. I could imagine that any puppy who is paid for has more worth to the average crap owner then one who just came free. They get the free puppy because it's just so cute and it's free! then realise a puppy grows, pees, chews, and actually costs them money then don't want it anymore. It's sad :-(
Yes, but even by taking a "free" puppy you are supporting the breeder.... the puppy is no longer his problem. So if you do take a free puppy, make sure the breeder is someone you don't mind supporting.
 

Dekka

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#54
Many resesearch projects don't use pet store mice or rats, they use specially bred mice and rats. Same for research projects that use dogs. Lab beagles. Resources for Beagle Lovers Not saying its ethical or no.. but they aren't stolen pets etc. They are carefully bred with known factors (like the mice)
 

KhayNette

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#55
Yes, but even by taking a "free" puppy you are supporting the breeder.... the puppy is no longer his problem. So if you do take a free puppy, make sure the breeder is someone you don't mind supporting.
hm I never thought of it that way. I suppose their motives are what one would have to think about. An accidental litter I wouldn't mind helping them out by giving a puppy a good home, but if they are doing it regularily I that would be a problem. Thanks for giving me that to think about.
 
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#56
hm I never thought of it that way. I suppose their motives are what one would have to think about. An accidental litter I wouldn't mind helping them out by giving a puppy a good home, but if they are doing it regularily I that would be a problem. Thanks for giving me that to think about.
And if it were an accidental litter, I'd have to see proof that they are getting their dogs spayed and neutered, to prevent this from happening in the future, before I take a dog from them.
 
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#57
Ask questions, check out the living quarters.

There are several things to consider when choosing a breeder. You can get the answers by asking a lot of questions. A good, quality breeder will know all about the breed and can answer any questions you might have. Ask to see where the puppies are living. Ask to meet the puppy's parents. A good breeder should be happy to let you see for yourself that your puppy is being housed in a hygienic environment and that the parents are healthy.

If the breeder seems not to know the answers, get suspicious. If the breeder refuses to let you see the parents and living quarters, go elsewhere.

Expect the breeder to ask you some questions as well. A breeder should care about the destination of the puppies. He or she will want answers about your home, other pets, how you will care for and raise the puppy, your previous experience with dogs and with this breed in particular.

If the breeder is not satisfied with your answers, you can expect to be denied the adoption.

These are just some of the key areas to consider when choosing a breeder.

Unqualified, uncaring breeders who are in it just for the money will be anxious to make the sale. They will tell you what they think you want to know, rather than the truth.

The biggest key is that a respectable, qualified breeder will actually care about you, your home, and the life you plan for the puppy he or she bred so well.

Sylvia
 
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#58
I think it is also worth mentioning that a lot of BYB's AREN'T in it for the money. Lots of times they are actually nice people who just don't understand and are ignorant of the homeless dog situation, of dog ethics, general dog info, etc. They mean well and are nice people, just completely ignorant about breeding.
 
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#59
I am very impress this site. SQL server is very nice, so thanks for this post. Very impressed with the knowledge you are posting here. I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground.
 
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