Quick food question

Dekka

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Why are yall fighting about dog food? Its just dog food? No matter how many posts you make about how wonderful the food you feed is, it is NOT going to make everyone change ther mind. I decided to change because I found out, with tons of research that the food I was feeding was bad. If these people are doing the best for ther dogs, who are we to judge? Just leave them alone. I made a post asking a question and it has turned into a complete monster. Cant we just stop? Maybe this thread should be locked, if that is possible, because all it is doing is causing fights. It is not even helping ANYONE anymore.
Umm the funny thing is the last few posts aren't even an argument :D
 

vanillasugar

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Lily, dog food is one of those topics people get very worked up over.

Those of us who've done our research, who strive to learn what's best for our own animals and who also make a pointed effort to educate other dog owners, get very upset when our words fall on deaf ears.

Mostly because we KNOW the difference, and it's frustrating when someone is trying to tell you what they feed is "just fine" and refuses to listen.

I do agree though, we need to see when enough is enough, to realise it's going nowhere, quiet up and move on.
 
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Simple question for Charlie:

Is chicken by-product meal better than chicken meal?

Don't dodge around the answer, don't talk about 75% moisture, just answer the question. Thanks.
The nutrient profiles of each ingredient are very close. They are so close that one has no edge in superiority over the other. Find that hard to believe?
Please check the links to follow and see for yourself.

Chicken Meal:

Chicken Meal
Typical Analysis
Crude Protein 63.00%
Crude Fat 12.00%
Crude Fiber 2.50%
Ash 18.00%
Moisture 4.50%
Grind 99% thru #12
Color Golden Brown
Digestibility 90.00%+
Metabolizable Energy 1,579 Kcal/lb=3,474 Kcal/kg

Minerals & Vitamins
Calcium 4.00%
Phosphorus 2.00%
Available Phosphorus 2.00%
Salt Equivalent 1.50%
Sodium 0.60%
Chloride 0.90%
Potassium 0.60%
Choline 5,992 mg/kg

Amino Acid Profile
Aspartic Acid 5.14%
Threonine 2.80%
Serine 2.87%
Glutamic Acid 8.36%
Proline 3.76%
Glycine 7.39%
Alanine 4.80%
Cystine 0.95%
Methionine 1.30%
Isoleucine 2.85%
Hydroxyproline 2.48%
Leucine 4.28%
Tyrosine 1.70%
Phenylalanine 2.52%
Histidine 1.39%
Lysine 4.30%
TSAA 2.25%
Ammonia 0.73%
Arginine 4.61%
Tryptophan 0.66%
Valine 2.84%
Taurine 0.40%

Poultry by-product meal

65% Poultry By-Product Meal
Pet Food Grade
Typical Analysis
Crude Protein 65.00%
Crude Fat 12.50%
Crude Fiber 2.50%
Ash 12.00%
Moisture 5.50%
Grind 99% thru #12
Color Golden Brown
Digestibility 90.00%+
Metabolizable Energy 1,575 Kcal/lb=3,465 Kcal/kg
TDN 78.00%
NEL 0.08
UIP 60.00%

Minerals & Vitamins
Calcium 3.60%
Phosphorus 1.80%
Available Phosphorus 1.80%
Salt Equivalent 1.50%
Sodium 0.60%
Chloride 0.90%
Potassium 0.90%
Manganese 10 mg/kg
Choline 5,940 mg/kg
Magnesium 0.20%

Amino Acid Profile
Aspartic Acid 5.10%
Threonine 2.71%
Serine 2.59%
Glutamic Acid 9.93%
Proline 4.26%
Glycine 9.07%
Alanine 5.08%
Cystine 0.62%
Methionine 1.30%
Valine 2.54%
Isoleucine 2.71%
Leucine 4.55%
Tyrosine 2.21%
Phenylalanine 2.79%
Histidine 1.23%
Lysine 4.30%
TSAA 1.92%
Ammonia 0.83%
Arginine 4.88%
Tryptophan 0.41%
Taurine 0.38%
Hydroxyproline 2.23%

Turkey by-product meal:

Turkey By-Product Meal
Typical Analysis
Crude Protein 62.00% Crude Fat 10.00%
Crude Fiber 2.50%
Ash 18.00%
Moisture 4.50%
Grind 99% thru #12
Color Golden Brown
Metabolizable Energy 1,392 Kcal/lb=3,070 Kcal/kg

Minerals & Vitamins
Calcium 4.80%
Phosphorus 2.40%
Available Phosphorus 2.40%
Salt Equivalent 2.00%
Sodium 0.80%
Chloride 1.20%
Potassium 0.60%
Choline 5,400 mg/kg

Amino Acid Profile
Aspartic Acid 5.14%
Threonine 2.78%
Serine 2.87%
Glutamic Acid 8.36%
Proline 3.76%
Glycine 7.39%
Alanine 4.80%
Cystine 0.74%
Methionine 1.52%
Isoleucine 2.64%
Hydroxyproline 2.48%
Leucine 4.28%
Tyrosine 1.70%
Phenylalanine 2.52%
Histidine 1.39%
Lysine 3.49%
TSAA 2.26%
Ammonia 0.73%
Arginine 5.19%
Tryptophan 0.44%
Valine 2.84%
Taurine 0.29%


Source: Griffin Industries

Links:

http://www.griffinind.com/Griffin%2004%20Site/pages/FPS%20chicken%20meal.html

http://www.griffinind.com/Griffin%2004%20Site/pages/FPS%2065%20poultry%20bypro%20meal.html

http://www.griffinind.com/Griffin%2004%20Site/pages/FPS%20turkey%20by-product%20meal.html


If you are under the impression chicken meal is a far superior ingredient, I would have to disagree based on my research. Go beyond the marketing, go beyond the catchy advertising, and you will find it's just a con job and these 'wholesome goodness worthy of your own dinner table' is utter nonsense.
 

Saintgirl

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I for one think that this discussion is very informative for those concerned about their dogs nutrition. I can see no reason why this should be locked, canine nutrition is vital for canine health- and already this thread has educated the OP and resulted in a better diet for her dog, whose to say that it won't educate more people?

Sure, it seems that some people refuse to understand the differences between dog food but good points have been brought up here. Many great links have been provided for those who want to further research nutrition. I am glad that this has gone on as long as it has because I know that many, many lurkers read through these posts daily and it is important for them to understand the value of a good diet for their dogs. This debate may have resulted in a few dogs getting a better diet! And that makes it all worth it!
 

Herschel

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I would assert any dog food that does not contain by-products meals is inadequate to say the least.
The nutrient profiles of each ingredient are very close. They are so close that one has no edge in superiority over the other.
OK. I'm slightly confused now. First, you said that any food that doesn't contain CBPM is inadequate. Then, you said that neither ingredient (chicken by-product meal or chicken meal) is superior to the other. :confused:

So which is it, Charlie? CBPM is the better ingredient, or is there really no difference?

(I feed a food with 3 different meat meals in the first 5 ingredients)
 

Saintgirl

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Clay, by product meal is not consistent, and that is the problem. The links you provided are for Griffin industries, and the typical analysis that they require. By product meal analysis can vary widely from source to source and that is where the problem lies.

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=betterproducts

If by product meal was consistent across the board than perhaps it would be a good protein source, however to claim that the by product meal from group A who likes to cut costs is the same quality as group B who is concerned about good nutrition would not be accurate.
 
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OK. I'm slightly confused now. First, you said that any food that doesn't contain CBPM is inadequate. Then, you said that neither ingredient (chicken by-product meal or chicken meal) is superior to the other. :confused:

So which is it, Charlie? CBPM is the better ingredient, or is there really no difference?

(I feed a food with 3 different meat meals in the first 5 ingredients)
Excellent question Herschel. My reference was in regards to kibble products that use a meat muscle as the #1 and nothing else to back it up down the line (like by-product meals). Remember the 75% moisture in regards to meat muscle. If there is nothing else to back it up down the line, it simply is not enough and there are a lot of those products out there.

If you have three meat meals within the first 5 I think you are doing good!
I would obviously have to consider the rest of the ingredients before coming to a conclusion. I see fiber content as the biggest danger in regards to feeds. Here is one thing you can check. If you have a fiber content of 3% or higher and contains anyone of the following, you can do a lot better: beet pulp, tomato pomace, cellulose flour, or gluten. If that is the case, I would stay away from that product.
 

Dekka

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the nice thing about meat meal vs BPM is that they tend to be higher quality. No drugs. But I wish they would quit listing crude protein levels..Or at least have total digestible protein in there too. You can have a whole pile of protein, but if its not easily broken down, it does no good. The sources of protein and what has been done to them (ie denaturing) affects the ability to digest the enzymes.
 
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Clay, by product meal is not consistent, and that is the problem. The links you provided are for Griffin industries, and the typical analysis that they require. By product meal analysis can vary widely from source to source and that is where the problem lies.

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=betterproducts

If by product meal was consistent across the board than perhaps it would be a good protein source, however to claim that the by product meal from group A who likes to cut costs is the same quality as group B who is concerned about good nutrition would not be accurate.
What is consistent? Is chicken as a #1 consistent? Problem is you don't know what your getting. The laws in these regards are vague. Then can give you just the skin of chicken and stay within the confines of the law. Next time you could be getting something else. We often here CBPM is inconsistent. So long as you're not getting feather meal (the real cheap stuff) it is consistent enough deliver the nutrient profiles. Inconsistency or slight variance is too minor to have any noticeable impact in nutrient profiles.
 
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the nice thing about meat meal vs BPM is that they tend to be higher quality. No drugs. But I wish they would quit listing crude protein levels..Or at least have total digestible protein in there too. You can have a whole pile of protein, but if its not easily broken down, it does no good. The sources of protein and what has been done to them (ie denaturing) affects the ability to digest the enzymes.
The only protein in regards to not being broken down is vegetable protein. Dogs do not have the enzymes to breakdown cellulose. You have no concerns in regards to animal source proteins, they will be broken down with no problems. However, problems can arise when fiber content is too high, it can encapsulate and prevent proper breakdown of proteins. Improper breakdown of protein due to high fiber diets is the path to immune system problems and all those allergies.
 
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I for one think that this discussion is very informative for those concerned about their dogs nutrition. I can see no reason why this should be locked, canine nutrition is vital for canine health- and already this thread has educated the OP and resulted in a better diet for her dog, whose to say that it won't educate more people?

Sure, it seems that some people refuse to understand the differences between dog food but good points have been brought up here. Many great links have been provided for those who want to further research nutrition. I am glad that this has gone on as long as it has because I know that many, many lurkers read through these posts daily and it is important for them to understand the value of a good diet for their dogs. This debate may have resulted in a few dogs getting a better diet! And that makes it all worth it!
Good post and I agree with you. Nothing wrong with debate and nobody is fighting, not me anyway.

I got into this thread because I don't like it when people get treated disrespectfully for their choices. If someone chooses to spend $80 a week on turtle food and buy Pedigree for the dogs, we can do better than references to garbage, junk, crap, etc. It's about treating people with some kindness along side of hopefully steering them in a better direction. We see it a lot and it is disheartening. If you are the user of the product, and someones states your feeding garbage, how do you think that makes them feel. There lies the fighting words and that invites the heat and tension. On the other side of the coin, debate is debate and it is in most cases it can informative and positive.

I didn't enter this thread to discuss what I feed. If I want to do that I would start a new thread. When a user makes a comment (zoom) to the effect, after all look what he feeds, a product with CBPM, that deserves a follow up. I will state my case and the reasons why it is used in the product. I feel I have the right to explain myself in regards to my choices.

Thanks,
Charlie.

Now I need Tom Brady to throw a darn TD here so I can get some points on my fantasy football team.
 

Herschel

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Excellent question Herschel. My reference was in regards to kibble products that use a meat muscle as the #1 and nothing else to back it up down the line (like by-product meals). Remember the 75% moisture in regards to meat muscle. If there is nothing else to back it up down the line, it simply is not enough and there are a lot of those products out there.

If you have three meat meals within the first 5 I think you are doing good!
I would obviously have to consider the rest of the ingredients before coming to a conclusion. I see fiber content as the biggest danger in regards to feeds. Here is one thing you can check. If you have a fiber content of 3% or higher and contains anyone of the following, you can do a lot better: beet pulp, tomato pomace, cellulose flour, or gluten. If that is the case, I would stay away from that product.
A maximum of 4% fiber in the diet we feed, but no beet pulp, tomato pomace, or grain fragments.

Why does Abady say that brown rice inhibits absorption in dogs? I couldn't find any references stating that there are significant levels of gluten in brown rice. It almost seems like they are avoiding brown rice because it is more expensive than white rice, as it is vastly superior nutritionally.
 
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A maximum of 4% fiber in the diet we feed, but no beet pulp, tomato pomace, or grain fragments.

Why does Abady say that brown rice inhibits absorption in dogs? I couldn't find any references stating that there are significant levels of gluten in brown rice. It almost seems like they are avoiding brown rice because it is more expensive than white rice, as it is vastly superior nutritionally.
White rice is brown rice with the outer hull of the grain removed. Brown rice is vastly superior in fiber content. They believe lowest possible fiber content is best for dogs. The dogs body is capable on its own to produce firm stools without help from fiber content (assuming the diet is structured accordingly for carnivores). If the diet is not structured properly, fiber therefore must be added to prevent persistent diarrhea as inappropriate ingredients are attempted to be rushed through the digestive system.

The protein from grain matter is also avoided known as gluten. There may not be significant levels of gluten in brown rice, however white rice is deemed safe in that respect in regards those avoiding gluten. Hate to draw comparisons to that of humans, but those who are allergic to gluten and must avoid it, white rice is generally considered safe to eat in that respect.

They are not avoiding brown rice to save a few dollars. It is avoided because of what I described, lower in fiber content.

Note the dietry fiber content of each:

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c21U8.html

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c21U3.html
 

Herschel

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The protein from grain matter is also avoided known as gluten. There may not be significant levels of gluten in brown rice, however white rice is deemed safe in that respect in regards those avoiding gluten. Hate to draw comparisons to that of humans, but those who are allergic to gluten and must avoid it, white rice is generally considered safe to eat in that respect.

They are not avoiding brown rice to save a few dollars. It is avoided because of what I described, lower in fiber content.
I still don't buy it. Maybe I am more familiar with all natural human foods, but so many "gluten-free" products are made from brown rice. See the results of this search for more information: http://www.google.com/search?q=Celi...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Why is fiber bad for dogs? I don't agree with adding ingredients like beet pulp and tomato pomace as artificial stool formers, but there is more to rice than fiber. So if the fiber comes with the benefits of rice, then why is that such a problem? (Abady uses white rice in several formulas)
 
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I still don't buy it. Maybe I am more familiar with all natural human foods, but so many "gluten-free" products are made from brown rice. See the results of this search for more information: http://www.google.com/search?q=Celi...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Why is fiber bad for dogs? I don't agree with adding ingredients like beet pulp and tomato pomace as artificial stool formers, but there is more to rice than fiber. So if the fiber comes with the benefits of rice, then why is that such a problem? (Abady uses white rice in several formulas)
They have a lot of info in regards to why they feel fiber is bad and why expansion type fibers are best avoided at their website. It is too much to get into here.
 

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By-products and plant proteins are used to lower the ash content of the foods, not necessarily to make a cheap food as rumor would have it, there are companies that use poor quality chicken meals also, all of these ingredients have different grades, and you can not tell the grade of the ingredient from the label, hence you cannot tell the quality of the food from the label. Here is some interesting information regarding by-products.

http://www.jaaha.org/cgi/content/full/41/4/273

http://home.alltel.net/cjevans/drake/letter.htm
 

Dekka

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I think the problem is not the byproducts. But the other things that get into byproducts...As I have posted before, my dogs eat whole animals, so I have no issues with feeding anypart of the animal. But when things listed as chicken by product also contain diseased meat, drugs, other animals (euthed cats and dogs)

Really I think we aren't even arguing. No one is saying those parts of the animal are bad to feed. The problem is what the redering plants can sell as by product. I heard in the US, as long as chicken is the primary ingredient, other things can be added and it can still be sold to feed companies as chicken byproduct meal. This doesn't tend to happen (from what I have researched) with things labled chicken meal.
 
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I heard that in Canada the the mad cow beef made its way into the ground chicken? The had so much extra beef I recall hearing the were sneaking it into the plants and mixing it in with the ground chicken.
 
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I think the problem is not the byproducts. But the other things that get into byproducts...As I have posted before, my dogs eat whole animals, so I have no issues with feeding anypart of the animal. But when things listed as chicken by product also contain diseased meat, drugs, other animals (euthed cats and dogs)

Really I think we aren't even arguing. No one is saying those parts of the animal are bad to feed. The problem is what the redering plants can sell as by product. I heard in the US, as long as chicken is the primary ingredient, other things can be added and it can still be sold to feed companies as chicken byproduct meal. This doesn't tend to happen (from what I have researched) with things labled chicken meal.
OK, just teasing (about the mad cow). However, I did read the antibiotics are widely used on chicken farms in Canada to help control and prevent disease. If your feeding ground chicken you are more than likely feeding antibiotics daily to your dog.

http://www.chicken.ca/DefaultSite/index_e.aspx?DetailID=885
 
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