New puppy pics...cute alert. :)

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by MsBehave, Feb 6, 2010.

  1. InLimbo87

    InLimbo87 New Member

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    This is Jessie...

    I totally agree. I bought a BC from working lines because I want a dog that does what it was meant to do. If I wanted a fluffy froo froo dog, then I wouldn't have chosen a dog that is bred to work.

    I disagree with just breeding for the "shell" of a dog... which ends up watering down the working abilities and also limits the gene pool.

    Also, Rory works stock... but he's also friendly with people who are non threatening. He's not fearful or aggressive with anyone or any dogs that I've seen. He ignores other dogs when he's working, but interacts well with people and dogs in all situations.
     
  2. Lizmo

    Lizmo Water Junkie

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    I could be completely wrong, but I think she breeds for show quality.
     
  3. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    I thought Rory was a rescue?
     
  4. InLimbo87

    InLimbo87 New Member

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    Kind of sort of... he was rehomed.

    He was purchased from a working breeder and then his owners had allergy issues... so we "adopted" him at 5 months old.
     
  5. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Oh okay. I was confuzzled for a second. (Not hard to do lol!)
     
  6. InLimbo87

    InLimbo87 New Member

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    Haha. I explained it in the thread when I mentioned getting him. He sort of happened along (and was super tempting at the time since he went through 2 sets of obedience classes and was already 5 months old). So he's not a rescue in the traditional sense, considering he could've just gone back to his breeder and we have his papers/health guarantee now and all.
     
  7. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Ah okay. I've slept since then haha.
     
  8. InLimbo87

    InLimbo87 New Member

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    Laur, I always miss stuff like that. Too many people and dogs to remember!

    MsBehave, I'd love to see some pics of your adult dogs. Corgis are one of my favorite breeds.
     
  9. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

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    I think someone should tell Ian that hes being impersonated! lol j/k

    and I agree with jessie, border collies (and other breeds) are what they are not just because of how they look.. getting a dog isnt just picking a breed that is pretty.

    you get a border collie or a corgi because you WANT that type of temperament they are known to have.
    if I wanted a happy, aloof, lazy, w/e dog.. Id pick a breed with those traits

    People should pick breeds that suit them, not change breeds TO suit them.

    just my 2 cents
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2010
  10. InLimbo87

    InLimbo87 New Member

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    LOL! I'm on his laptop and didn't realize at first that he was logged in, and now I'm just too lazy to log myself in :lol-sign: I'm upping his post count, though, cuz I'm cool like that :p

    But yeah, I definitely agree... I wouldn't get a breed unless it fit me. There are sooo many pretty breeds out there that I would never own because they don't fit me at all. I think Belgian Malinois are one of the most gorgeous dogs out there... same with Dobes... but they wouldn't fit me as much as BCs and Chis do.
     
  11. MsBehave

    MsBehave New Member

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    Ok, Im going to agree to disagree here.

    My dogs have herding instinct, I have one that is herding titled.

    I do not want just any breed, I want Pems...BECAUSE of who/what they are, sometimes in spite of it.

    I think all dogs must evolve to "fit in" for what they are "used" for in this day and age. That does not mean breeding instinct out, it just means making them easier to live with, sometimes.

    I do not want a shelter dog. I do not want a terrier. I do not want a BC. I want a Pem. After having them for so long, and running the gamut of temperaments...I know what I like to live with and look at, and thats that. Its not going to change.

    Want to see more of my dogs, feel free to go to my website: Marpran Pembrokes and Annara Cockatiels- Excellence in Type and Temperament!

    There you will see one of my "pet bred/show bred" puppies herding sheep. He also has his TD, working on agility and was asked by the herding instructor if HE could take the dog out and handle him to more titles. I'm pretty proud of that dog, and I think he is representative of the puppies I produce...remember...thats only 6 litters in 17 years of having a "show quality" health tested Champion dog.

    I'm proud of my dogs. Don't like them? THats ok. I love them. And that is why I do what I do.

    Over and out, on this thread. :D

    MsB
     
  12. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    hmm And I was going to ask one puppy out of how many? Dekka herds sheep ;) and she's a JRT.

    I was really enjoying this conversation because so many show breeders will just up and leave and say breeding is all about the look other wise you don't have breeds.

    I just want to understand. You say you don't want a terrier etc.. but if all show breeders do what you are doing and breeding dogs to be more and more generic.. it won't matter as they will all be pretty much the same. (you would get individual differences, but those would not be breed based, but line based) I would say the reason you dont' want a terrier has more to do with terrier attitude than terrier looks...

    I am glad you are proud of your dogs (I should hope your are) and it shouldn't matter to you if we like them. But you really haven't explained why you do what you do. You are into a herding breed but say that herding isn't important enough for you to find time for.. but you find time to do beauty pagents (conformation.. and no I don't mean that in any insulting way.. I show confo too.. but it is what it is) If I ever had to ditch an unbiased testing ground the first one I could ditch is confo.. this is why I wish you would explain your reasoning. I mean the temperament traits you like in the breed will continue to get watered down if people don't breed for it (this is not my opinion.. if you want the pop gen stats to back this up .. i can do that)

    You also never said why not try to breed to the breed standard.. ALL of it, not just the looks portion?

    The reason this fascinates me is I forsee the doom of purebred dogs if things keep going the way they are. And so many people (not meaning you.. you may or may not be one of these people) seem to rather stick their head in the sand than look at what is going on around them.

    (I REALLY would love to calculate the effective population size for shelties for example)
     
  13. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Cavaliers would probably be even more interesting.
     
  14. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    cavs would be interesting.. but they aren't a 'main stream' breed. Their over all pop is smaller so it would the Ne would be expected to be smallish. Shelties are a popular breed with lots of them around.
     
  15. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Really? I see more cavs than shelties around here. Well maybe about the same. But cavs started with a genepool of just one dog. I've always wondered how that affected things.
     
  16. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    Founder effect! lol basenji's would be more interesting.. the main pop in NA was descended from only 6 dogs, until fairly recently. Starting with one dog is fine as long as you outcross enough. Its the constant inbreeding thats a (potential) problem.

    I think shelties are much more numerous than cavs over all in Can and US. But there could be pockets where there are more cav breeders. (lol like here with tollers.. go to an agility trial around here and you see = numbers of tollers to BC or sometimes more tollers. My Calc proff has a toller..)
     
  17. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    Er, I've been following this thread and am pretty confused.

    What exactly are people getting on the OP's case for? To my knowledge, same sex aggression does not equal sharpness or working ability. It can arise from selecting certain traits sure, but it's presence or absence doesn't mean a dog will or won't work.

    So what exactly is wrong with breeding away from same sex aggression? Yeah it can be an acceptable trait in your breed, but why keep that trait when it doesn't serve any purpose, especially if your breed can still be a good working dog without it? Even more especially if you KNOW your puppies are likely to go into multi dog homes, dog aggressive tendencies are going to decrease that dog's chances of staying in the same home it's entire life. Or cause that dog to be less happy in it's home than it would be without the stress of being dog aggressive.

    Also worthy of note: Breeding away from a trait doesn't mean you go out and automatically cull every animal with that trait from breeding. It means you make educated pairings with a mate who does not share that trait or carry it in their lines. So, to breed away from same sex aggression you would pair her with a male who hasn't produced any same sex aggressive daughters, and has no other female relatives with the issue. Culling them all just removes a block of valuable genetics from the gene pool.

    And if we want to nitpick so badly at the OP not working her dogs :rolleyes: why don't we just berate her for not working them on cattle instead of sheep? I mean seriously, it's a totally different herding technique with a whole other level of sharpness for moving cattle. Yearling steers and bull calves are jack holes. There is no way on earth chasing ewes around a pen once or twice a month comes even close to testing the original corgi temperament and working ability. So, what should corgi breeders do? Should nobody breed corgis if they don't have access to cattle to test their dogs on? Also, some people just don't like herding. Does that mean they can't/shouldn't be involved in a herding breed at all? Would it be better or okay if they did agility instead? If so, why? Agility isn't a natural job for any recognized breed.
     
  18. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    I have no objection to breeding away from same sex aggression, if it can be done without losing the working ability.

    What I do object to is breeding away from working ability:

    ONE herding titled dog in 20 years and 6 litters?

    Yes. :p Why should the breed be turned into less and less of a working breed? Why should the breed be made suitable for anyone who wants one? When people ask me about owning a pemmie, I often find myself steering them away from the breed. If you're not prepared to own a dog with the hardness and sharpness and drive of a cattle dog, then go look at a different breed. I adore my breed and part of that includes NOT wanting to see them be able to live in any home that wants them.

    Would you suggest breeding sighthounds that can be loose in an unfenced yard and won't run off just because there are people who want the breed but don't have fencing?
     
  19. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    How much of a working breed are pems right now? Because I've had cattle all my life, been around other folks with cattle who did have working cattle dogs, and I've never ever once seen or heard of a working corgi. By working, I mean a corgi who goes out every single day and moves stock for a living. I've seen australian cattle dogs, and cur dogs, but never a corgi.

    If you could steer me toward any corgi breeder who DOES work their dogs on cattle for a living, then I will believe that the breed is still a working breed. That's like saying, nobody should breed any great danes unless they put them on wild hogs first. Sorry, but most modern danes would probably pee themselves or get killed by the pigs. I don't see how it's remotely realistic to hold the OP to standard of breeding that virtually no other corgi breeders follow.

    There isn't a very big market for full time cattle dogs, and of the people out there looking, very few are looking for corgis.

    People want to make a big deal about show vs. working breeders, and honestly it is NOT a black and white issue. Yeah, it would be wonderful if there were still jobs for all these breeds. The fact is, there isn't anymore.

    People can say their dogs herd all day long, put little titles on them and stuff but the fact is, competitive herding these days is not a job. It's a sport. Running around a ring with a bunch of dog savvy ewes is a different world than bringing a pissed off ewe with her lamb off the side of a mountain during a raging lightning storm. Chasing a plastic bag around a field is a world away from running down a wild wolf and hamstringing it, then holding it down by the neck until your master can catch up with you. Also, not all people are lucky to live near a place that offers herding lessons. I am fortunate to have two coursing and two (really good) herding venues within an hour of my house. Where my sister in law lives, she has to drive over 5 hours to do either one of those activities. What then? You can't be involved with a breed unless you move close by a club that hosts activities?

    I mean, my borzoi can chase sheep in a circle for crying out loud. He definitely can't work them all day. I don't call what he does for fun, herding.
    [​IMG]

    Let's take pit bulls, or any other fighting breed. Have boston terrier breeders destroyed the breed by breeding DA out of them? What about amstaff breeders taking it out of their dogs now? That is a trait that is REQUIRED for their original job of fighting. Is it ethical to breed away from it? Are non DA pits still pits? What about places where hunting is illegal with hounds? Should people breed away from that? Or should they go out and test their dogs illegally? I'm not saying there is a right or wrong answer. The answer is going to be different for each individual breeder. Each person has their own vision of where they want to take their lines. What eye shape they prefer, what level of drive, what traits they like and dislike, what type of game they want to hunt or stock they want to work. It's not right or wrong IMO unless the dogs are suffering from it, like you're breeding deformed unhealthy animals or psycho ones who suffer from normal human contact.

    As long as people are health testing, willing to take back puppies that don't work out in their new homes, and breeding with a goal in mind, I'm happy. I don't have to agree with their goal, but as long as the dogs are taken care of it's better than the vast majority of breedings that go on out there.
     
  20. elegy

    elegy overdogged

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    DA doesn't make the pit bull, but a lot of the temperament characteristics that predispose dogs to being DA are the very core of the pit bull, and imo are lacking in a lot of the show bred AKC amstaffs. they don't have the spark, the tenacity, the drive. many of them are oversized and overdone. there is a reason why the pit bull and the amstaff are now largely different breeds. the pit bull is the working breed. the amstaff is the show ring breed.

    also there's the tiny little detail of dog fighting being, you know, illegal. that changes things up a bit.
     

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