Nancy Grace has gone too far

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Bobsk8

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Well the punishment should match the crime, You put that dog to sleep and then you throw that owner in jail....see the trend? You punish those who commit crimes, not those who look like the offender!
If we do it this way, would you like to volunteer to talk to the child and her parents and explain that this approach was your idea?
 

Amstaffer

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If we do it this way, would you like to volunteer to talk to the child and her parents and explain that this approach was your idea?
Sure....why not? I would hope that any sane logical person in a free democracy would understand you punish wrong doers not people who look like people who are past wrong doers :(

If we did it your way, would you like to go to the thousands of homes and explain to the countless children that their best friend is going to be riped from them because their dog looks like what some people believe is a dangerous dog and that the actual bad guy won't be pursued?

You would be upsetting far more people than I would...........
 

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Sure....why not? I would hope that any sane logical person in a free democracy would understand you punish wrong doers not people who look like people who are past wrong doers :(

If we did it your way, would you like to go to the thousands of homes and explain to the countless children that their best friend is going to be riped from them because their dog looks like what some people believe is a dangerous dog and that the actual bad guy won't be pursued?

You would be upsetting far more people than I would...........
When a person has been attacked, their loved one has been attacked, or even one of their animals attacked you are not dealing with a sane logical person. Especially if they see the attack. Most would not care if the entire breed of the dog were wiped from the face of the world. Most would actually prefer that.

In the mid 80's I was invited, along with several other owner/breeders, to go on the Oprah show to defend our breed of choice. That did not seem to be a very wise move at the time so I declined. One friend, a vet, along with a few others went on the show. They were under the impression they would be able to explain how the breed was not to be blamed and hoped to help educate others.
What they found out when the show began was the audience was chosen from those who had a friend, loved one, or knew of someone who had been attacked by a pit bull. Even had several who had bad scars from pit bull attacks. Everytime they tried to make a statement the crowd would start yelling and calling them murderers.
 

Amstaffer

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Do we then bow to mob rule? (no saying pancho is implying this) Being someone who fits the demographic of many pictures at the post office....I am glad we don't let only the victims write and enforces laws. :yikes:
 

ToscasMom

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Elections are mob rule. Always have been. Some city councils are considering placing this type of legislation on voter referendum. That way they don't have to make anybody mad at them personally for what comes down later.

Now I know you said I "made up my mind". I just want to let you know that my only job is to write the draft. I don't make these decisions any longer. At times I recommend though, and sometimes I insert things in the first draft as food for thought. That is why I wanted something solid to go on besides "the usual".

If I did make this decision, I am not even sure how I would handle it. I suppose I could refuse to write it, but I wouldn't delude myself into imagining it wouldn't get written anyways by someone else.
 

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Do we then bow to mob rule? (no saying pancho is implying this) Being someone who fits the demographic of many pictures at the post office....I am glad we don't let only the victims write and enforces laws. :yikes:
Many times that is exactly what happens. The victim or the victims family will write or at least sponser a law. Some will even allow photos of deceased family members to be shown.
That doesn't make it right or fair. Most times they are just used by others to get a certain law passed. It is a lot easier to get others to agree if you have the victim there to show them.
That is the main problem with the pit bulls. One scarred victim and photos of other victims will win over all of the gentle pit bulls lined up together. They just cannot compete. All the normal person sees is a bunch of large, strong, mean looking dogs with owners who care little about the victims and care more about the dogs than they do humans.
Then it is easy for the media to show how little some people care about their neighbors. Works every time. None of it has to be true, it will sell papers and make for a better news show.

I have been attacked by a pit bull. It is a very freightening experience. When the dog took me to the ground and started shaking out its hold on me I was sure I was not going to be able to get up. The attack was so fast I did not have a chance to brace for the charge. When I was able to get away, just lucky the dog was inexperienced attacking large animals, I went to our vet to be sewed up. If I would have gone to the hospital there would have been many questions asked. I chose to let my vet do the work as she knew the dogs and knew what would happen if I went to the hospital.
I can understand how a young person or a child would feel and the feeling of hopelessness that they would feel when a dog brought them to the ground.
 

Amstaffer

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Elections are mob rule. Always have been. Some city councils are considering placing this type of legislation on voter referendum. That way they don't have to make anybody mad at them personally for what comes down later.

Now I know you said I "made up my mind". I just want to let you know that my only job is to write the draft. I don't make these decisions any longer. At times I recommend though, and sometimes I insert things in the first draft as food for thought. That is why I wanted something solid to go on besides "the usual".

If I did make this decision, I am not even sure how I would handle it. I suppose I could refuse to write it, but I wouldn't delude myself into imagining it wouldn't get written anyways by someone else.
Maybe contact State Farm Ins. I have talked to them about why they unlike some, don't band breeds but only dogs who have bitten. Maybe they could supply you with amuntion and sanity for your legislation.

Mob rule is not demcracy (at least it isn't supposed to be), democracy is when people educate themselves on issues then make informed decisions. Mob rule is when people let hysteria and emotion overtake their reason.

In mob rule the rational ones often close the shades and hope the mob feeds their blood lust and then goes away....sadly the mob usually just looks for the next victim.

Also contact some local Pit Bull or Amstaff clubs and introduce them to the city "elders". Get some of the "elders" to go to a dog show.....

In the end can you write a law that will result in many innocents being killed? I couldn't, I hope with some soul searching you won't be able to. Let someone else have to explain that to their maker in the end...not you.

Or you could write it based on laws that have been over turned (see some Alabama laws). That way they can be challenged and thrown out.
 
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Bobsk8

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Maybe contact State Farm Ins. I have talked to them about why they unlike some, don't band breeds but only dogs who have bitten. Maybe they could supply you with amuntion and sanity for your legislation.

Mob rule is not demcracy (at least it isn't supposed to be), democracy is when people educate themselves on issues then make informed decisions. Mob rule is when people let hysteria and emotion overtake their reason.

In mob rule the rational ones often close the shades and hope the mob feeds their blood lust and then goes away....sadly the mob usually just looks for the next victim.

Also contact some local Pit Bull or Amstaff clubs and introduce them to the city "elders". Get some of the "elders" to go to a dog show.....

In the end can you write a law that will result in many innocents being killed? I couldn't, I hope with some soul searching you won't be able to. Let someone else have to explain that to their maker in the end...not you.

Or you could write it based on laws that have been over turned (see some Alabama laws). That way they can be challenged and thrown out.
That's strange. When I got Smokey I called my State Farm agent to see if I needed any additional coverage and they specifically asked if my dog was a Pit Bull. I said no, and they said no problem, no additional coverage is needed.
 

ToscasMom

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Amstaff, I would never write something knowing it wouldn't stand. However, the rest of your post has given me some food for thought. Particularly the next to the last paragraph.
 
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It's just not practical. In the suburbs of Atlanta, they estimate that around 20% of the drivers who are illegal immigrants are driving around with either no drivers licenses at all or phoney ones. If the state can't regulate that, how far do you think they will get regulating dog owners?
Right, but you don't think that laws which affect all dog owners equally would be more enforceable than trying to define breed or decide who should own them? Or chasing down phantom Pit Bull reports, like what happened in my old neighborhood which adopted BSL? If the answer is in a law, then make it enforceable and fair. Its better than supporting a law which might remove a few Pit Bulls, but is ultimately destined to fail miserably when it comes to improving overall public safety.

Personally, I don't think the answer lies in any laws. It lies in education. And hopefully in the tapering off of breed popularity as people realize that it is not the breed for everyone. (If you look at the fatality statistics, high numbers in a breed usually go hand-in-hand with a popularity spike, like with the Rottweilers in -- what was it, the 90s?) Unfortunately, there will always be those that resist education, and they are the problem, not the breed they choose to exploit. The dogs are the only ones in this equation that have no control over what is done to them.
 
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ToscasMom, that was a heck of a post you made a few pages back. I could actually feel myself seeing things from the other side, which is the sign of a very gifted wordsmith.

My thoughts stemming from that: Personally, I don't force anybody to like my dog. I simply ask that they respect my right to own this breed as long as I hold up my end of the bargain and don't allow my dog to create any problems. If one doesn't like the breed for whatever reason, I liken it to myself not liking the breeds that I don't like. When I brought home my dog as a 10-week-old puppy, my uncle refused to touch her, citing bad experiences with other Pit Bulls. I thought it was a bit odd, but I didn't force the issue, though I did quietly note the time earlier this summer when he knelt down next to my dog and petted and loved on her without any urging from me.

Sensitivity is always a good idea, but it is very straining when you look at it from this side. People want to take away a very important part of my household, my life. They want to make it gone because of their fear. To me, it is not about my dog having any particular rights, but about my right to keep my family intact, including the dog. The breed is a big part of my past, present, and hopefully my future. When people want to take that away from me for no tangible reason (at least not as pertains to my personal situation), it is very hard to address the issue without the flare of emotions coming into play. I feel that twinge even as I write this.

So how far do we go to placate peoples' fears? There would be little left for me if I had to give up the breed, so that is essentially the ruination of not only my dog's life, but much of mine as well. I guess when it comes down to it, we would be an exchange of innocent lives. But should that make anybody feel any better? What of people who are deathly afraid of snakes? (I own one of those as well.) There is so much fear; where do we draw the line at what we will eliminate to make people more comfortable?
 

Amstaffer

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That's strange. When I got Smokey I called my State Farm agent to see if I needed any additional coverage and they specifically asked if my dog was a Pit Bull. I said no, and they said no problem, no additional coverage is needed.
I don't know when you went to State Farm but here in Wisconsin they asked if my dogs were trained to attack or if they had ever bitten, they never asked the breed. I even said "is it ok if they are pit bulls" and they said "as long as they are friendly pit bulls it doesn't" wow what a novel idea. I love State Farm for being sane and fair. Plus they have good pricesc:D

ToscasMom I was half kidding about the write it to fail....but I would undermine a bill like that in a heartbeat if it was my job to write it. I would do anything in my power to set up a bill like that to fail. Can you say "Law Makers" and "Pictures with Sheep"? :p :p
 

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OK, the next time I see a child that has their face ripped off by a Pit Bull, I will tell them that they shouldn't worry, we will give the dog owner a big fine and maybe a week in jail if we are lucky..!!! That should make the child feel just great!!! :rolleyes:
see, this is where i have little patience for the BSL brigade. THAT DOG and THAT OWNER should be punished. and it should not matter WHAT breed of dog it was. the bottom line is that a child was harmed.

my dogs have never done any harm to anybody. why should my dogs, and by extension *me*, be punished for crimes that we have not committed?
 

elegy

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I don't know when you went to State Farm but here in Wisconsin they asked if my dogs were trained to attack or if they had ever bitten, they never asked the breed. I even said "is it ok if they are pit bulls" and they said "as long as they are friendly pit bulls it doesn't" wow what a novel idea. I love State Farm for being sane and fair. Plus they have good pricesc:D
yup, i had zero problem getting coverage from state farm with my dogs, either. i was asked if they'd been trained as guard dogs and if they'd ever bitten anyone. i said no to both questions. he then said "you have the two pit bulls, right?" he sees me walking them around town.

of course, this whole conversation took place under the direct supervision of his very large, very happy rottweiler :)

nationwide, i believe it is, will cover "blacklisted breeds" who have their canine good citizen certificates.
 

ToscasMom

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What of people who are deathly afraid of snakes?
Gulp. That would be me. I sold a home in Florida and one of the reasons I hated it there was what came up out of the water the house was near and what sometimes visited in the yard. Ok that wasn't the only reason, but I do feel that no self respecting snake would want to live in the snow I shoveled this morning. I definitely have a thing about snakes. Not crazy about reptiles as a whole but really have to admit I shot a colorful snake once. I have no idea what it was but it was in the yard in Florida. I don't even go to the snake area at our zoo. I don't particularly care for canal rats either, particularly after one year when the water level went down and they moved in the house for the summer while we were up North. I wanted to sell the place right there and then. No, hell I would rather shovel snow. But you see, people can move away from places where these types of creatures proliferate if it offends them, if they don't mind freezing their butts. Beats running into an aligator though. Ok ok, I'm exaggerating, but to a person who really doesn't like reptiles, seeing ONE is enough to make them run.

Ah you see, it's a good thing I am not drafting a reptile ordinance! But the real point is, we all have our fears and how those fears are dispatched depends on how many people have the same fear and how real it is in terms of incidents. Hell I would take my chances with a room full of unknown pit bulls before I would move in with a snake. Unfortunately, the general public feels differently.

You know, I really never ever in my life expected to be involved at any level with this issue. I am more a live and let live kind of person. This is one I am having a hard time with and I will probably bow out if for no other reason than I have a good friend who owns a pit bull and I really don't want to sacrifice that friendship for the check I would get for writing an ordinance and going to a (gasp) public hearing. At the same time, I would know how the others feel if I saw a loose pit bull coming at me. So I really do have mixed feelings, as you can tell.
 

chinchow

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OK, the next time I see a child that has their face ripped off by a Pit Bull, I will tell them that they shouldn't worry, we will give the dog owner a big fine and maybe a week in jail if we are lucky..!!! That should make the child feel just great!!! :rolleyes:
Perhaps more children need to be educated about responsible dog ownership, rather than adults. Most adults are set in their ways, and will not have their minds changed, and you are a good example of that. But to tell a child that a dog attacked them because of it's breed does nothing.

Secondly, I don't think many of the people contributing to this thread even want a realistic solution to this problem. They would rather name call and insult and try to demonize anyone that tries to be realistic about the problem and use some logic in the discussion.
What a generalization being made. Not unlike the other generalizations you've chosen to make, either. Do those who want pit bulls banned not name call and demonize? If you think they don't, then I suppose you need to open your eyes just a bit more.
It's pretty obvious that you have not met mny, or any possibly, good representatives of this breed. You seem to think that any urban pit bull owner is a terrorist to those around them, and that's just as cruel a judgement as banning the dogs. And to go so far as to say that licensing will not help is a bit odd as well. Considering you seem to be up in arms about the law, and taxes/licenses are placed for many other forms of property (and yes, dogs are considered property, take it or leave it) to just snobb your nose up to this idea is only adding to the problem. What kind of society are we, if we can't even give things a shot? Not a very good one, and the people who do not wish to give these good ideas a shot, even if they themselves don't agree with them, need to just stop trying to contribute anything anywhere on the subject.
 

pancho

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There are many pit bull breeders that have moved to urban areas and have 100-300 grown dogs. It isn't unusual to find breeders with 50-100 grown dogs. 500 pups a year is not unusual. Many are shipped all around the country and many are exported. These people make their living by selling dogs. Some do very well.
Most of the times these grown breeder dogs are not up to date on their shots and have never seen a vet. If you do not live very close to them you would never know the number of dogs they own.
I know several breeders that have bought a small farm surrounded by timber company land. Put a gate across the road and restrict access.
 

Amstaffer

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There are many pit bull breeders that have moved to urban areas and have 100-300 grown dogs. It isn't unusual to find breeders with 50-100 grown dogs. 500 pups a year is not unusual. Many are shipped all around the country and many are exported. These people make their living by selling dogs. Some do very well.
Most of the times these grown breeder dogs are not up to date on their shots and have never seen a vet. If you do not live very close to them you would never know the number of dogs they own.
I know several breeders that have bought a small farm surrounded by timber company land. Put a gate across the road and restrict access.
very very sad :(
 

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That is one thing that will defeat the bans. One thing that will defeat those who think the aggression can be bred out of the pit bull. One breeder with 100 breeder dogs can raise and sell many more pups than those who would like to change the pit bull. Mostly those who want to change the breed do not raise puppies so there is little danger of the breed changing. Take 50 owners who spay and neuter their dogs, they do not raise pups. Just one urban breeder can raise several hundred pup each year.
There are many of these breeders scattered all over the southern states mostly. They do not worry about bans or people hoping to change the pit bull. They can see how many dogs they raise each year and know of many just like them. In many areas dog breeding is a business just like raising cattle, horses, or pigs.
 
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