Getting in heel position?

Elrohwen

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#41
And I GUESS actual foundation behaviors are sort of more important than snazzy tricks.
Haha. NEVAR! Train all of the tricks!

Independent pivots on either front or back feet would be really cool. I bet you could at least get that using the disc pretty soon, but getting it on the floor would be harder - at least for a dog like mine with minimal body awareness.

Between a Pivot and a Heel, heel is sorta more important. And between a handstand and a nice stay....I guess stay is more important too. LOL
Watson hasn't done a "real" stay (like, anything longer than a "wait" for agility or rally type activities) for a long time. I *hate* working on stays when they get past about 30 seconds. Who wants to stand there forever when you can do all the fun things! I do actually enjoy training heeling though, but I know it's not everyone's favorite.
 

Lyzelle

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#42
Video made!
Sort of.

So I basically just hit record and let it go wild. As a result, there is some randoms here and there, like my 5 second attempt at stay. Or back up (and she decides backing up diagonally is way cooler). Or my stacking attempts. Which is basically like, "Are you standing still? Can I move a foot? ALRIGHT HERE IS FOOD SHOVE IT IN YOUR FACE."

BUT. There is some heel practice there. I've started doing these practice sessions more and more, just going back and forth between "In Front" and "Heel'. I keep the treats in my hand and let them go when she is in position. Granted this encourages hang mugging, but I'm dealing with it. My hands were scar-free for like 2 months. It was weird.

[YOUTUBE]vsf7z6h2lz8[/YOUTUBE]
 
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#43
So, I'm going to try to offer some constructive criticism but it is not always easy for me to articulate this stuff so I'm sorry if it comes out weird.

My overall feeling is that a lot of the time she's not yet completely sure what you want and is sort of taking her best guess. Like when you ask her to back up and she goes diagonally I think maybe she's just sort of winging it.

She's doing pretty well with the fronts to moving to heel (I call this "swish" for Squash, so I'll refer to it that way), but I think she's mostly still following the lure. If this were me, I'd try to make my hand gesture for the swish a little more consistently distinct. Sometimes your palm is open, sometimes your fist is closed, and the sweep of your arm is a little inconsistent. For people, that stuff isn't important but dogs are so literal that it can make a huge difference.

Also, unless you are saying it too softly for me to hear, it doesn't sound like you are "always or never" marking before giving the treat. Sometimes I hear a "yes" and sometimes not. That's personal preference, but either don't do it or do it, kwim?
 

yv0nne

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#44
Ugh. I typed up a big response and then accidentally closed out the tab. So frustrating.

Anyway, the main post was your dog seems confused. Even the commands you have out on a verbal she doesn't really seem to grasp. She's still confused about those& making her best guess for you. I think you need to make your signals for commands more consistent to help her figure out what you're asking :) her hesitation is because she doesn't get it yet.

Also, your rewards for 'front' were not when the dog was sitting straight in front of you. So the first time she offered a front I would have rewarded was at 2:20ish and instead of a reward, you asked for another behaviour. I guess a lot depends if you want to trial with her heel or just play around& don't mind not enforcing correct behaviour consistently.
 
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#45
I agree with Sass and Yvonne, I think she is incredibly confused.

I would honestly go back to pivot work and teach her to follow your body/leg. I would use that to get her to really understand where you want her to be and what you are rewarding her for because at this point I think she really doesn't understand.

Pivot really isn't just a fun cute trick or even just hind end awareness, it's teaching them to follow and read your body and move their body with you. If they can heel in a circle with you it makes it easier later to start moving straight. Then I would really work on rewarding her a lot in heel position and maybe add a step or two in. But as of right now from what I could tell, she's just not sure what you are asking for or what you were rewarding for.

I wouldn't be worry about a swing finish or be teaching a front as part of heel yet. I found that once my dogs REALLY understood what heel meant the swing finish started happening without me needing to teach it (I of course cleaned it up) because they understood what heel was and it was the best way to get into that position.

And I know you said you dropped the clicker but I would then maybe start consistently using a verbal marker so you can really mark the exact moment she does what you want.
 

Lyzelle

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#46
I am definitely very bad at consistent signals. I try to keep silent because she is very easily excited and then she loses her head. She is a very FAST working dog and I try to slow it down a lot. BUT that doesn't mean I can't simply mark the behavior or be more physical with it. I also need to really crack down on being consistent with my signaling. I wouldn't doubt that is the majority of her confusion. She knows the action, but not the cue.

It started out that way with the clicker, too. She is SO FAST and she would loop through behaviors she knew or try new ones to figure out what I wanted. I think I should probably stop the free shaping for now and focus on cleaning up each cue and action to make it way more clear cut for her.

I will take my camera again today and work with her on purely review of things she already half knows and clean up my signals

. The videos help a LOT. I miss trick of the week and "What are you working on" thread with everyone's videos and learning from each other. Maybe we could get that going again?
 
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#47
So, it occurred to me that maybe we are not all on the same page about what "pivot work" is. So I shot a little video with Pip, who has done a ton of perch work but not much pivot work to demonstrate what *I* mean and how I do it.

My personal preference is to start by moving into them. I find it easier for my body to tell their body what I want. Many people prefer to start moving away, so the dog is always learning to adjust their position to yours. I think it's just your personal preference and what works for you. I find that my dogs tend to step off the pivot rather than actually pivot when I start with moving myself away, so I do it the other way and it works for me.

I'm luring too high for what I normally like to do for this. I should be luring at his shoulder height. But what I really want to highlight is that I am giving him A LOT of feedback, and marking/rewarding for even just the slightest foot movement on the perch. I want him to know that I want him to be moving. And no, this isn't perfect position but it is the foundation for him learning that what I want is for him to move with my movement.

Also, I am squeakier than usual because I have a bad cold. Sorry if I break anyone's wine glasses. :p

[YOUTUBE]SRkHFojzrZE[/YOUTUBE]
 

Oko

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#48
Not using any sort of marker, just a yes or a clicker, is going to create a major learning gap for her. Honestly, I think she thinks she is getting rewarded for biting at your hand a lot of the time. It helps me when I rewatch my training videos and try to see what the dog thinks I'm reinforcing rather than what I think I'm reinforcing.

Denise Fenzi has an awesome online precision heeling class that has step by step instructions for pivot and all sorts of stuff, it is great. I took it. Highly recommend.

Here is a video from doing the homework, Feist is five months old:
[YOUTUBE]0t67fG9CjRU[/YOUTUBE]

and we got to this point before we slacked off on heeling:
[YOUTUBE]pHsIYWC0Mh8[/YOUTUBE]
 
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Elrohwen

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#49
I agree with the others that she seems confused about what you want and is just following the lure without really getting it.

I wouldn't worry about the front to heel stuff right now. As some others said, a swing finish will just happen once she understands what you want. If she can pivot on a disc, she'll quickly figure out how to pivot from front into heel using the disc as a guide, and then do that naturally on the ground.

I'd go back to the disc work. Did you watch the video I posted of Watson? I won't claim that my training there is great - I was moving too fast and not always rewarding right at my pant seam. But I would work on the basic stuff in that video - pivoting in front position on the disc, and then pivoting in heel position always towards you.

Another pivot thing I learned in a seminar is for you to sit on a 5 gallon bucket and position her between your knees with a treat. Then you turn slowly on your butt, and use your knees to encourage her to pivot her hind end.
 

DJEtzel

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#50
So this session went on way too long for a 17 wk old :)eek:) but the first minute and a half is heelwork/rear end awareness on a pedestal, perch, whatever you want to call it. I do front work from 1:40-2:00, then go back to heel position work.

I would get this sort of response ironed out on a pedestal and during different sessions (heel work in one, front work in another) before you're asking for either of them on the flat, let alone flip flopping between them. Try to focus on one per session if you can, or do one, then the other, not going back and forth between them. (as you can see, I kind of suck at that, but my markers and rewards are a little more clear to the puppy here so he has not lost his mind, and this is all luring still)

You are ALWAYS going to see mistakes in your training when you go back and watch videos. I take them often with the intent to upload and "show off" how good something has gotten, then realize I made approximately 10 errors and my dog was not in the position that I thought he was at the time (that the lord for mirrored training rooms!) so I make notes on things to change next time and then pitch the recording. ;)
 

Lyzelle

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#51
Thanks for all the advice, guys. I knew I wwas rusty but on the drive home thinking about it and wondering why I was THIS BAD, I realized I haven't done any sort of formal training since I was a lonely housewife in Montana, back when trick of the week FIRST started. That was like, what? 2011? 2012? It has been a LONG TIME.

So I REALLY appreciate all the advice and criticism. Keep it coming. Sassafras, your video and explanation helped a lot to. I get the theories, but not the vocabulary or the practice.

Will video today at our training center. It has mirrors so I can see myself.
 
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