Getting in heel position?

Lyzelle

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#21
Okay, so this. She will stay in position next to the wall. But away from the wall, she swings back to my front. It's like this with all methods, with lure, without lure, with leash, without leash, with marker, without marker. Always swings back around to face me. Against a wall she has improved...but will still try to get ahead of me sometimes, like she does at the end of the hall.

EDIT: And yes, even with a treat in my hand, right next to my leg...she will do that. Either stand perpendicular to me or facing me.

So I'm scratching all of it and going back to platform work and Pivot. It seems like the best option for now.

Also Zander cameo

I give up on trying to do the direct video all pretty here.

Follow ze link: Video
 
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Dekka

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#22
What if you plan to shape it.

This is how I train heel (and my dogs have some pretty snappy heels)

Ie Reward dog for walking beside you watching your face/hand/leg what ever you want. Work on dog sticking to you like glue. Dont' worry about bum out too much, that will tighten up as you go along esp once you start doing left pivots.

Start with right turns only and gradual changes of speed.

Then do some 90 degree left turn and faster changes of speed.

Then try to 'lose' your dog, if you did the first part well it will be hard.

Now is when I start getting sideways and backwards heeling. Once I have that left pivot is easy.

Typically along the way you end up with a dog who can find and stay in heel no matter how you doodle along.
 

Beanie

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#24
I highly recommend right now just building value for the reinforcement zone against the wall without worrying about the movement just yet.

One thing I see immediately is you are rewarding with the hand furthest from her, which makes her (and/or you) need to reach across your body for the reward delivery. The reward should be in your hand closest to her so you can simply reach straight down and give it to her. I think the curling you are getting might be partly due to this. It is not uncommon for my students to have this issue and it's often due to the dog being heavily reinforced for being in front, so the dog is doing this sort of cock-eyed thing trying to be in front, or it's just poor reward placement. Once you have built a lot of value for the RZ and you start to move away from the wall, if her butt comes out away from you, take the reward (in the hand closest to her) and actually deliver the reward on the outside of her body. So if she is in heel on your right, you will take your right hand and place the treat to the right of Quinn's head. Depending on the dog you may need to be a little more deliberate and actually kind of lure this, or simply offering the treat there is usually very effective. She will turn her head and along with her head the butt will follow to get her butt to swing left into you.

In the meantime I would work on the pivots around the bowl just for rear-end awareness and then you can combine the two later.
 

Dekka

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#25
See and I would keep movement in it.

Though seeing as you are doing a right side heel make all my above recommendations the same only doing start off doing right turns, do left ones.

I think you need to find more opportunities to reward her. She looks really unsure and hesitant. In my experience if you move more she will be in the right place more and thus you can reward more.
 

DJEtzel

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#26
I agree with the above. She has no idea what you want. She does not have enough value for heel position to add in movement. Definitely reward with your near hand or you will get wrapping that will not help her value for the front of you already. :p

This is what my criteria is before adding any movement- understanding of the position. Please disregard my clothes and house, I just leapt off the couch to film. lol

[youtube]iL60f_Z2Vhc[/youtube]

You also need to be a little more engaging. She keeps swinging out to front because she isn't sure what you want and you aren't marking/rewarding her while she is still at your side.

eta; and yes, rear end awareness on a bowl. That's all I have done to teach Patton this positioning, then also did luring in motion to build muscle memory as a pup. Here he is at 12 wks when we started rear end awareness. His second or third session, maybe?

[youtube]JeNwEjBz_4c[/youtube]
 
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#28
I would get away from the wall, personally. I think she's definitely feeling the pressure from the wall and it's "squeezing" her forward, for example at ~0:30.

I almost always teach this with a pivot brick.
[YOUTUBE]Qreu5UuUos4[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]22dOf88RTiI[/YOUTUBE]

But since she wants to be in front of you so bad it might be a good idea to suspend reinforcement in front for a while, like Beanie suggested. Can you put her in a sit, and then move yourself into heel position?

The one thing I noticed in your video was you are really late with your clicks. Since just moving into position is so challenging for her, waiting for the sit is too much of a lump. She should be getting at least 1/2 treat per second.
 

meepitsmeagan

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#29
You have to love pressure sensitive herders!

Definitely work on the platform stuff. Also, I saw that someone mentioned your reward placement, but I want to reiterate moving that right hand down and providing her a lure. Once she gets the idea you can begin to fade that out.
 

Elrohwen

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#30
I agree that she just seems unsure of what you want, but using reward placement and something like pivot work will help.

When you reward, make sure to use the hand on the same side that the dog is on. Position your hand on your pant seam and slide it down towards the dog. It will seem odd and too far back (at least it did for me) but this is rewarding in position. If you reward out in front of you it's just going to encourage the wrapping.

I would also ditch the wall for now and work on pivots. The wall might be crowding her and making it more difficult. Using a pivot disc will fix her front feet in position so that when you stand next to her, she's automatically in heel position and can't be wrong.
 

Lyzelle

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#31
Just wanted to say thank you again! I will update with video possibly tonight. I have an interview in the afternoon and I am not sure how long that will take.

1. Reward with hand on the same side ad the dog.
2. Pivot work on platform, ditch the wall.
3. Let up on the reinforcement for Sit/Attention, less pay off for being in front of me. Work on basics in different positions.
4. REWARD. Fix late clicker and reward consistently for placement.
 

Kootenay

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#32
Great advice already!

What worked for me was a combination of a few different things, and I managed to dig up video of the beginning stages of various different components.

Lots of pivot work, working pretty quickly up to pivoting in heel position, like at the beginning of this video. Then the target she's standing on got smaller and smaller and eventually we stopped using it, and still did lots of stationary pivoting like this.

[YOUTUBE]-lfSvSSpKqU[/YOUTUBE]

I also did some "imprinting" the position with movement, like in this video.

[YOUTUBE]ryO8_NH9rvU[/YOUTUBE]

And also lots of luring while in motion to build muscle memory, in this video from about 30 seconds onwards.

[YOUTUBE]ArKpohJ2jIQ[/YOUTUBE]

Lots of videos, but I know for myself seeing things works WAY better than seeing written explanations! :)

All of those plus many more experiments along the way have given us a heel that I'm pretty darn happy with, though it's not finished yet...
 

Lyzelle

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#35
Okay, so I ended up being way more busy than I thought. LOL.

But we have made a lot of good progress with the position itself. She offers it a good 50% of the time along with in front. And I have done a few exercises moving her from in front to heel. She sometimes offers one heck of a heel when she is following me around, but I am not asking it from her yet, I just reward when she does it.

Pivot...I am undoing my disaster of trying to teach Cross Paws. She has jitter bugs for front feet and she is certain that moving her front feet is often the answer. But she is coming along well there too, just not freely. If I walk into her sideways, she will Pivot away, so I am also working on stepping back and having her pivot back into me.

And then slowly move the lure (me) out of the picture so she can do it on her own. 90% of Zander's behaviors are lures, and I love it. But when it comes to Quinn, I sure do HATE lures!

Oh, and I have dropped the clicker entirely for these behaviors. Praise and toys works well enough, and they are easier for consistent and constant rewarding.
 

k9krazee

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#36
Glad you're making progress!

Oh, and I have dropped the clicker entirely for these behaviors. Praise and toys works well enough, and they are easier for consistent and constant rewarding.
Just a quick note...Clickers are not used in place of rewards, just a marker to pinpoint the exact moment the dog did something right and then a reward (food, praise, toys) is given.
 

Elrohwen

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#37
Did you teach her to pivot in front position first? I would start there, rather than going straight to heel position. Just hold a treat in front of her nose and get her pivoting around while facing you. Then lose the treat and have her pivot based on your body position. Then move into heel position once she has the concept of moving her back feet though you'll probably need to lure again so she understands not to pop back out in front of you. You can use your hand held above her head at your pant seam as the lure as she learns to pivot into you.

This video shows Watson around this point. He can pivot while I'm in front (I should be moving more slowly), and I teach him to commit to the bowl even when I move in close. Then I move to heel position and reward in position and he's already figuring out that he needs to pivot to stay with me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MNQarlH8ok

And then slowly move the lure (me) out of the picture so she can do it on her own.
This might not be relevant, because I'm not sure what lure you're referring to (treat, hand, etc), but ultimately you want her following your body position, so you will sort of always be luring her. She will learn where to focus on your body in order to follow which direction you need her to turn. She won't really be pivoting entirely on her own if the goal is heeling.
 

Lyzelle

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#38
Glad you're making progress!



Just a quick note...Clickers are not used in place of rewards, just a marker to pinpoint the exact moment the dog did something right and then a reward (food, praise, toys) is given.
Right, I mean click/reward as opposed to just rewarding. Marking the behavior with a clicker was frustrating for both of us, because as you guys pointed out my timing was NOT up to par for the job.

Did you teach her to pivot in front position first? I would start there, rather than going straight to heel position. Just hold a treat in front of her nose and get her pivoting around while facing you. Then lose the treat and have her pivot based on your body position. Then move into heel position once she has the concept of moving her back feet though you'll probably need to lure again so she understands not to pop back out in front of you. You can use your hand held above her head at your pant seam as the lure as she learns to pivot into you.

This video shows Watson around this point. He can pivot while I'm in front (I should be moving more slowly), and I teach him to commit to the bowl even when I move in close. Then I move to heel position and reward in position and he's already figuring out that he needs to pivot to stay with me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MNQarlH8ok



This might not be relevant, because I'm not sure what lure you're referring to (treat, hand, etc), but ultimately you want her following your body position, so you will sort of always be luring her. She will learn where to focus on your body in order to follow which direction you need her to turn. She won't really be pivoting entirely on her own if the goal is heeling.
She won't pivot without me luring her with myself. Which on one hand is okay, since as you said the end result is heeling anyway and I'll always sort of be a lure. But I won't lie, I was sort of hoping for a shaped/independent/in front of me type of pivot, too. :eek:
 

Elrohwen

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#39
She won't pivot without me luring her with myself. Which on one hand is okay, since as you said the end result is heeling anyway and I'll always sort of be a lure. But I won't lie, I was sort of hoping for a shaped/independent/in front of me type of pivot, too. :eek:
How are you imagining it? Like, you tell say "pivot right" and she pivots 360 degrees to the right while you stand still? It would make a cool trick, but at that point it's totally independent of what you need for heeling.

In a way, you can sort of get that easily enough - if Watson is in front position and I say "heel" he will pivot around into heel position without me doing anything.

I also found that using the hand lure (what Denise Fenzi calls "pocket hand") really really helped him transition from the platform to the floor. It was hard to transition from pocket hand to having my hand at my waist though, but it's useful to have the pocket hand to fall back on for times I need to support him. Basically what I'm saying is that I didn't fade the lure very quickly at all, for better or worse. I could argue that I used the lure for too long, and I could also argue that the lure is what got me the precision I have today. Hard to say. Haha
 

Lyzelle

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#40
How are you imagining it? Like, you tell say "pivot right" and she pivots 360 degrees to the right while you stand still? It would make a cool trick, but at that point it's totally independent of what you need for heeling.

In a way, you can sort of get that easily enough - if Watson is in front position and I say "heel" he will pivot around into heel position without me doing anything.

I also found that using the hand lure (what Denise Fenzi calls "pocket hand") really really helped him transition from the platform to the floor. It was hard to transition from pocket hand to having my hand at my waist though, but it's useful to have the pocket hand to fall back on for times I need to support him. Basically what I'm saying is that I didn't fade the lure very quickly at all, for better or worse. I could argue that I used the lure for too long, and I could also argue that the lure is what got me the precision I have today. Hard to say. Haha
Independent like just asking for a spin/turn, only a Pivot and minus the heel part. I imagined two tricks with Pivot...one with back feet planted and one with front feet planted. But I'm also sorta a trick addict, which is why we don't even have a basic heel at 10 months, but we have lots of cool tricks! LOL

I wouldn't want to confuse her more at this point anyway. Pivot > Heel is perfectly fine with me. And I LOVE the look of those snappy swings and competition heels. You win some, you lose some. And I GUESS actual foundation behaviors are sort of more important than snazzy tricks.

Between a Pivot and a Heel, heel is sorta more important. And between a handstand and a nice stay....I guess stay is more important too. LOL
 
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