Bad Dog Trainer Beware !!
- Thread starter swilson
- Start date
Yeah, I'm sure that if Seamus had been beaten EVEN MORE before we got him then he wouldn't have the reactive biting issues that make him unadoptable to families with small children. 
Forget the word "beat" your so loving to spew...
"correction" is the word in training ... YOU tell me how YOU would "correct" a dog that snaps at a human hand regardless age of either.
Come on now .... don't everyone rush to answer. Childrens lives depend on your views you know. And this is no joke. Talk to me. Do you through ooopss throw him a cookie? Do you say "please stop"? Are you one to shoot the dog? Will you flip it? Will you shock it? Will you be afraid of it? Will you put it off for another day?
How bad was the first bite? How long did you see the warning?
There needs to be compromise here, and on an adult level if this is to be education. Not turnspeak.
I'm going fishing for catties now, I think you people were very rude to Mr. Richling and he had only one welcoming post from a member.
There is too much fornicated BS and he is right again by saying Liberals.
What was that saying Ben Franklin always wanted us to remember ....
:lol-sign: :lol-sign: :lol-sign:
If you don't beat your dog, he will maul children. Now, I find that very interesting. Very interesting indeed.
Now I will go off topic a bit. Have you ever noticed that most happy, successful, pleasant people had nice, loving parents? I have also noticed that the depressed, ****ed up, potential murderers were abused by them. People who are a danger to society have a reason for being that way.
Let's think about that a little. Now let's apply the same concept to dogs. When you beat a dog, you create FEAR. And you know what generates from fear? Lots of things. You see it every day in humans. Fear does NOT create nice, loving, kind feelings. Fear generates HATE. ANGER. AGGRESSION. NO TOLERANCE.
This abused dog, if let out into the open, WILL TRY AND PROTECT ITSELF. They misleadingly think that everyone else acts the same way. And you know how they will protect themselves? VIOLENCE. INFLICTING PAIN AND FEAR.
Please. It's ****ing common sense. Think about it. At least keep an open mind.
Now I will go off topic a bit. Have you ever noticed that most happy, successful, pleasant people had nice, loving parents? I have also noticed that the depressed, ****ed up, potential murderers were abused by them. People who are a danger to society have a reason for being that way.
Let's think about that a little. Now let's apply the same concept to dogs. When you beat a dog, you create FEAR. And you know what generates from fear? Lots of things. You see it every day in humans. Fear does NOT create nice, loving, kind feelings. Fear generates HATE. ANGER. AGGRESSION. NO TOLERANCE.
This abused dog, if let out into the open, WILL TRY AND PROTECT ITSELF. They misleadingly think that everyone else acts the same way. And you know how they will protect themselves? VIOLENCE. INFLICTING PAIN AND FEAR.
Please. It's ****ing common sense. Think about it. At least keep an open mind.
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None of the above. The issue with supressing (correcting) this behaviour Is that you are not solving the underlying issue. Dogs don't bite for no reason. I have children around my dogs. My dogs have been trained to not guard objects, food etc. I have gotten dogs in who HAD bitten people/kids. I rehabbed them with out hitting. To this day the new families have had no issues. Biting is caused by fear (it can be fear that someone will steal their bone, that someone will kick them off the couch, or the fear that someone will hurt them) Biting is what happens when humans ignore the dog's warnings. So with a rescue, if they warned me, ie by freezing, lifting a lip, I would no know what scared them. Most were food guardy. So I taught them that there is nothing to fear with humans near their food. Problem solved. There are lots of examples of dogs being physically corrected for growling when people come near their food. So dog learns not to growl, or attack the bigger stronger adults. Then along comes a toddling child. The dog knows this child is weaker than they. They also know that humans don't like growling. So dog bites kid, no warning.
Trainers hear these stories all the time. But unless you are in the loop, as it were, you would never know.
Trainers hear these stories all the time. But unless you are in the loop, as it were, you would never know.
I am referring in terms of purpose, not training. Just like Dan said, actual working dogs have to be on it 100% not like agility or obedience, where it is not a life or death issue whether the dog performs or not. I'm not making excuses for anything. Did I say it was right to hit a dog with a stick? nope, I would never do that, nor will I strike a dog with my hands, if I did that to a dog I could very well get bit (especially dealing with hard, agressive dogs). Yes, I have seen WONDERFULLY trained police K9's (my mentor for one, has an AMAZING dutchie-father to my Rayd- so full of life and the energy. You would never imagine this dog to attack) used with positive reinforcements, as well as my dogs. But like I said many times, there is a time and a place for everything. No pups in my club are EVER trained with aversives everything is positive. just because someone does use corrections from time to time does not mean they are abusive. I am speaking in terms of myself and my training. I am not trying to defend hittng a dog ect, but defending the "grey area" that does exist in dog training.
I am going to try to explain what I *think* Melissa is talking about. I have seen dogs snapping at people all the time. Do you let your dog get away with that behavior? Or just ignore it? Do you give your dog any kind of indication that that it unacceptable behavior? What if your dog was agressively lunging and barking trying to bote someone? What would you do then?
*No one is defending beating a dog* The term correction to me is referring to a verbal correction or collar correction, not BEATING as you guys continue to put it.
*No one is defending beating a dog* The term correction to me is referring to a verbal correction or collar correction, not BEATING as you guys continue to put it.
What is it that is driving the dog to bite at a human in the first place? Is it fear? Aggression? Has this dog ever bitten and snapped at a human before? Is there an underlying medical issue? Lack of socialization? There could be any number of causes, and depending on the cause a physical correction could make the underlying behavior MUCH worse (as in the recent thread featuring the aggressive springer spaniel, who's human aggression escalated to the point of attacking it's own family as a result of physical correction), or it could simply inhibit the dog from biting someone at that precise moment.
If it was MY dog, then I would have an idea already of what could be causing the behavior. Also, if it was MY dog, it wouldn't be in a position where people could be interacting with it without me on the other end of a leash, micromanaging the interaction. Sorry, I'm paranoid that way and it's just not worth it to me for someone to be bitten, or for my dog to have to be put down because some moron let their two year old run up to a strange dog and try to hug it. When Seamus would attempt a reactive fear bite (which would be made FAR worse if I had tried to physically correct him when he did it, as a physical correction on an already fearful dog will only make his assumption that "human touch = pain" grow stronger, resulting in more defensive bites) my correction was a very authoritative "ah ah!" He would freeze, and stop. No bite. This is being coupled with positive reinforcement (human touch = wonderful things) other times when he is calm is good. HE has made an enormous amount of progress, though not totally cured I have high hopes that if this continues he will be able to trust that no humans are going to harm him, and will not feel the need to defend himself from a friendly pat. That is what works for him, in his situation. Until we are able to desensitize him completely to those triggers that cause him to reactive fear bite he will not stop completely. That is his specific case.
Other dogs are different. Some need thyroid meds, some need serious socialization, and yes, some do need to be shot. No amount of hitting a dog or yanking it's collar, or electrocuting it will stop biting/snapping 100%. It can interrupt a bite in progress, but it will not cure the problem. That behavior is a symptom of any number of vastly different underlying issues that need to be dealt with in order to erase the symptom.
*warning: rant ahead*
For Seamus I use the word "beat", because whoever "corrected" him managed to shatter a 10 month old puppy's hip in the process.
Sorry if I seem self righteous about this, but that attitude comes from working closely in rescue with large breed dogs/older puppies that have severe psychological problems caused by morons who think that hitting their dogs/leash snapping/hanging will somehow magically teach them to behave. When it doesn't they go to the shelter, and when they don't get adopted they get euthanized. A few like Seamus make it into the rescue. Personally, I feel that more than anything it's bad training/no training that kills dogs. Moer than BYBers and puppymills even. Lack of or incorrect training is one of the biggest reasons large breed dogs end up homeless, once they hit that obnoxious 6-15 month period. Just go to any shelter and you can see what I am talking about
*end of rant*
If it was MY dog, then I would have an idea already of what could be causing the behavior. Also, if it was MY dog, it wouldn't be in a position where people could be interacting with it without me on the other end of a leash, micromanaging the interaction. Sorry, I'm paranoid that way and it's just not worth it to me for someone to be bitten, or for my dog to have to be put down because some moron let their two year old run up to a strange dog and try to hug it. When Seamus would attempt a reactive fear bite (which would be made FAR worse if I had tried to physically correct him when he did it, as a physical correction on an already fearful dog will only make his assumption that "human touch = pain" grow stronger, resulting in more defensive bites) my correction was a very authoritative "ah ah!" He would freeze, and stop. No bite. This is being coupled with positive reinforcement (human touch = wonderful things) other times when he is calm is good. HE has made an enormous amount of progress, though not totally cured I have high hopes that if this continues he will be able to trust that no humans are going to harm him, and will not feel the need to defend himself from a friendly pat. That is what works for him, in his situation. Until we are able to desensitize him completely to those triggers that cause him to reactive fear bite he will not stop completely. That is his specific case.
Other dogs are different. Some need thyroid meds, some need serious socialization, and yes, some do need to be shot. No amount of hitting a dog or yanking it's collar, or electrocuting it will stop biting/snapping 100%. It can interrupt a bite in progress, but it will not cure the problem. That behavior is a symptom of any number of vastly different underlying issues that need to be dealt with in order to erase the symptom.
*warning: rant ahead*
For Seamus I use the word "beat", because whoever "corrected" him managed to shatter a 10 month old puppy's hip in the process.
Sorry if I seem self righteous about this, but that attitude comes from working closely in rescue with large breed dogs/older puppies that have severe psychological problems caused by morons who think that hitting their dogs/leash snapping/hanging will somehow magically teach them to behave. When it doesn't they go to the shelter, and when they don't get adopted they get euthanized. A few like Seamus make it into the rescue. Personally, I feel that more than anything it's bad training/no training that kills dogs. Moer than BYBers and puppymills even. Lack of or incorrect training is one of the biggest reasons large breed dogs end up homeless, once they hit that obnoxious 6-15 month period. Just go to any shelter and you can see what I am talking about
*end of rant*
I understand, but I simply stated from the beginning that I do not condone beating or intimidating a dog. I do however use corrections, and I do not appreciate being thrown into the extreme category just because I do feel there is a time and place for a correction. And because of that, I have been thrown into the "abuser" category, when in fact the foundation of my training is purely positive. None of my puppies recieve correction. Everything is a game for them, and obedience is fun. I raise them to be confident puppies who turn into confident dogs. So a slight correction does not ruin their demeanor. Corrections work great if they are introduced properly. Dogs who become intimidated and fearful are a result to improper training and upbringing.
Long post Melissa, but you asked for an explanation so here goes.
If a dog is handled properly from the beginning, he is very very unlikely to bite a hand of a child. If he is properly socialized to children, if he is treated kindly by children and by all and pleasantness is all that is associated with children during and after his critical socialization period, it is very unlikely that he will bite a child. He will learn tolerance and acceptance of people of all ages around his food and tolerance for accidents that happen such as getting a foot stepped on or an ear poked. He learns tolerance as a pup because he learns that bad things don't happen in association with people; adults or children. My Doberman got stepped on, tripped over, run into by various people and he just looked like, "duh...what happened?" That's because he knew no one did anything on purpose. It had not been a part of his repertoire growing up.
If a dog does bite a child due to poor training and handling, that behavior can still be modified. If it happens "out of the blue" (which is a crock anyhow....things like that don't happen out of the blue. There's a reason for it) then you have to interrupt things so it doesn't continue or happen again. You have to do what you have to do to make the child safe at that moment.
However, that moment, that emergency is NOT the time to train the dog about not biting children. That is NOT the lesson time. A desensatization process or program needs to be implimented whereby, there is adequate flight distance between the dog and the "bad" thing....children in this case. To simplify: the dog must be made to believe that the child is not a threat, not a scary thing (if that is the reason) or not prey (if that is the reason). In other words, the child must be made into a good thing, a thing that is to be trusted and that the association therewith is nothing but good things, things the dog wants and likes. Child equals fantastic. This is a bit of a short version, but the concept is just that. Causing the dog fear and pain, as in harsh correction associates the child with a rotten time. Child equals bad. Dogs learn by association. If you supress the behavior, supress the bite or growl (those are communication) you do not supress the underlying reason the dog bit in the first place. You only supress the bite behavior. So, he may not bite for a long time to come. But because the child is still not a good thing, it is very common for this kind of behavior to regress as in the expression, "ticking time bomb." It can come out later in an explosion. And it does very often. This is documented by many reputable, well known trainers, not just my opinion or experience.
Punishing a dog for a behavior which is normal for a dog without teaching an alternative and a way to deal with the actual issue is counter productive and wrong. Biting is normal dog behavior. It isn't normal for us and doesn't fit into our culture or society. But dogs don't know this in a moral sense. So, when you hit a dog or "correct" him sternly for something that is in his communication system, you are only shutting down the communication, nothing more. And that is dangerous and unfair......and not the way dogs understand things.
Why not learn to train in a way that dogs can relate to based on their natural ways of learning? When you go to a foreign country where people don't speak your language, do you talk to them in your language only and expect them to understand? Or do you try to use some of their language and maybe some hand signals or drawing something on paper....something that they can understand so that you two can communicate?
It's the same with dogs. Show the dog what you mean in a way he can understand your language and try to understand what he is trying to tell you. Dogs have a rich array of body and facial signals which mean different things. People have studied this for a long time and observed and experimented with. And there are signals and social cues that we use that they can understand....there are some. But not everything we do translates into something they can understand.
THAT is why learning canine behavior is so important, not learning by only your interpretation, but taking in what others have learned before you, studied, experiemented on, had success with, gone to universities for advanced degrees in behavior, trained many many animals.
There is more than scolding a dog when he doesn't perform a behavior to your liking. There are ways to get him to perform to your liking without hitting him....ways which coincide with behavior law, proven concepts and techniques...Behavioral law is like a law of physics. Apples fall off trees due to gravity. Dogs learn by reinforcment due to behavioral law. Dogs are not obedient to cues and commands. They are obedient to behavioral law....something that is falling on deaf ears here.
The training "methods" that are what you advocate are not responsible training. I am sorry to be so blunt. But training by means of force and supression, submission just isn't nice and does not make a dog happy. Wagging tails are calming signals in the case of dogs who are so harsly treated.
My Doberman is very obedient, very well mannered, trained in a few venues, very well socialized....is a dream dog. I never laid a hand on him. The most I've done is tell him strictly, "eh-eh!" Or sometimes "NO!" Or even sometimes, "knock it off!" I have never stomped toward him, intimidated him. He has been trained completely with motivation and reward. If there is a behavior problem that has cropped up, it was dealt with, not in a direct approach, as in right then and there. But after, as a process. For example, he got snarky with my male Chihuahua for a brief period. I think he was getting possessive of me a little bit. So, when he looked like he was about to bite Jose`, I hollered, yessireeeee! I sounded vicious! "NOOOOO!" And I stepped in there and pointed my finger out the door...."OUT!" Yes, I was scared. Jose` is a little dog. So, no...that was not the best way to handle it. That was not the way to train Lyric. That was the primate in me....waving, failing arms, loud screeching noises like a chimpanzee. It taught Lyric nothing. If anything it made him associate a rotten time in close proximatey to Jose`...not a good thing. So, from then on, I decided to impliment a more ridgid NILIF for a while and I was very careful with Jose`. Lyric did this snarling routine a few more times and each time I calmly told him "out" which means out of the den. I put him in my room alone and closed the door for a few mintues. I then kept Lyric out of the den (where this problem happened, and only there) for a couple of weeks. No longer was he allowed to hang with me very much. I was aloof. Then I let Lyric back in the den with Jose safely tucked under a chair where Lyric would have a hard time getting him, if he were to snarl or snap. Lyric would lie nicely rather near the chair and mind his own business. He got tiny terats dropped for him and lots of love. Those nice things were happening in the presence of Jose`. "Oh wow....look at this.....when Jose is around, good things happen." It was at least 6 or 8 months and I never had a single incident again. I no longer give treats as much, although I still do randomly while they're both in the den with me. So, the payoff for his good behavior is treats and he gets to be with me in the den. And Jose turns into a pretty good thing to Lyric. It is in association with him that he gets good things. Behavioral law: when there is a payoff for a behavior, that behavior is much more likely to be repeated. When there is NO payoff for a behavior, that behavior is much, much more likely to extinguish.
If a dog is handled properly from the beginning, he is very very unlikely to bite a hand of a child. If he is properly socialized to children, if he is treated kindly by children and by all and pleasantness is all that is associated with children during and after his critical socialization period, it is very unlikely that he will bite a child. He will learn tolerance and acceptance of people of all ages around his food and tolerance for accidents that happen such as getting a foot stepped on or an ear poked. He learns tolerance as a pup because he learns that bad things don't happen in association with people; adults or children. My Doberman got stepped on, tripped over, run into by various people and he just looked like, "duh...what happened?" That's because he knew no one did anything on purpose. It had not been a part of his repertoire growing up.
If a dog does bite a child due to poor training and handling, that behavior can still be modified. If it happens "out of the blue" (which is a crock anyhow....things like that don't happen out of the blue. There's a reason for it) then you have to interrupt things so it doesn't continue or happen again. You have to do what you have to do to make the child safe at that moment.
However, that moment, that emergency is NOT the time to train the dog about not biting children. That is NOT the lesson time. A desensatization process or program needs to be implimented whereby, there is adequate flight distance between the dog and the "bad" thing....children in this case. To simplify: the dog must be made to believe that the child is not a threat, not a scary thing (if that is the reason) or not prey (if that is the reason). In other words, the child must be made into a good thing, a thing that is to be trusted and that the association therewith is nothing but good things, things the dog wants and likes. Child equals fantastic. This is a bit of a short version, but the concept is just that. Causing the dog fear and pain, as in harsh correction associates the child with a rotten time. Child equals bad. Dogs learn by association. If you supress the behavior, supress the bite or growl (those are communication) you do not supress the underlying reason the dog bit in the first place. You only supress the bite behavior. So, he may not bite for a long time to come. But because the child is still not a good thing, it is very common for this kind of behavior to regress as in the expression, "ticking time bomb." It can come out later in an explosion. And it does very often. This is documented by many reputable, well known trainers, not just my opinion or experience.
Punishing a dog for a behavior which is normal for a dog without teaching an alternative and a way to deal with the actual issue is counter productive and wrong. Biting is normal dog behavior. It isn't normal for us and doesn't fit into our culture or society. But dogs don't know this in a moral sense. So, when you hit a dog or "correct" him sternly for something that is in his communication system, you are only shutting down the communication, nothing more. And that is dangerous and unfair......and not the way dogs understand things.
Why not learn to train in a way that dogs can relate to based on their natural ways of learning? When you go to a foreign country where people don't speak your language, do you talk to them in your language only and expect them to understand? Or do you try to use some of their language and maybe some hand signals or drawing something on paper....something that they can understand so that you two can communicate?
It's the same with dogs. Show the dog what you mean in a way he can understand your language and try to understand what he is trying to tell you. Dogs have a rich array of body and facial signals which mean different things. People have studied this for a long time and observed and experimented with. And there are signals and social cues that we use that they can understand....there are some. But not everything we do translates into something they can understand.
THAT is why learning canine behavior is so important, not learning by only your interpretation, but taking in what others have learned before you, studied, experiemented on, had success with, gone to universities for advanced degrees in behavior, trained many many animals.
There is more than scolding a dog when he doesn't perform a behavior to your liking. There are ways to get him to perform to your liking without hitting him....ways which coincide with behavior law, proven concepts and techniques...Behavioral law is like a law of physics. Apples fall off trees due to gravity. Dogs learn by reinforcment due to behavioral law. Dogs are not obedient to cues and commands. They are obedient to behavioral law....something that is falling on deaf ears here.
The training "methods" that are what you advocate are not responsible training. I am sorry to be so blunt. But training by means of force and supression, submission just isn't nice and does not make a dog happy. Wagging tails are calming signals in the case of dogs who are so harsly treated.
My Doberman is very obedient, very well mannered, trained in a few venues, very well socialized....is a dream dog. I never laid a hand on him. The most I've done is tell him strictly, "eh-eh!" Or sometimes "NO!" Or even sometimes, "knock it off!" I have never stomped toward him, intimidated him. He has been trained completely with motivation and reward. If there is a behavior problem that has cropped up, it was dealt with, not in a direct approach, as in right then and there. But after, as a process. For example, he got snarky with my male Chihuahua for a brief period. I think he was getting possessive of me a little bit. So, when he looked like he was about to bite Jose`, I hollered, yessireeeee! I sounded vicious! "NOOOOO!" And I stepped in there and pointed my finger out the door...."OUT!" Yes, I was scared. Jose` is a little dog. So, no...that was not the best way to handle it. That was not the way to train Lyric. That was the primate in me....waving, failing arms, loud screeching noises like a chimpanzee. It taught Lyric nothing. If anything it made him associate a rotten time in close proximatey to Jose`...not a good thing. So, from then on, I decided to impliment a more ridgid NILIF for a while and I was very careful with Jose`. Lyric did this snarling routine a few more times and each time I calmly told him "out" which means out of the den. I put him in my room alone and closed the door for a few mintues. I then kept Lyric out of the den (where this problem happened, and only there) for a couple of weeks. No longer was he allowed to hang with me very much. I was aloof. Then I let Lyric back in the den with Jose safely tucked under a chair where Lyric would have a hard time getting him, if he were to snarl or snap. Lyric would lie nicely rather near the chair and mind his own business. He got tiny terats dropped for him and lots of love. Those nice things were happening in the presence of Jose`. "Oh wow....look at this.....when Jose is around, good things happen." It was at least 6 or 8 months and I never had a single incident again. I no longer give treats as much, although I still do randomly while they're both in the den with me. So, the payoff for his good behavior is treats and he gets to be with me in the den. And Jose turns into a pretty good thing to Lyric. It is in association with him that he gets good things. Behavioral law: when there is a payoff for a behavior, that behavior is much more likely to be repeated. When there is NO payoff for a behavior, that behavior is much, much more likely to extinguish.
Romy
I was not asking if a correction would cure the problem, it wont, and I think we all know that. but what would you do with a dog who showed no signs of agression and one day decided to snap? What if your verbal correction did not phase the dog and it continued to try to bite?
Remember we are not trying to cure the problem, just a temporary fix.
I was not asking if a correction would cure the problem, it wont, and I think we all know that. but what would you do with a dog who showed no signs of agression and one day decided to snap? What if your verbal correction did not phase the dog and it continued to try to bite?
Remember we are not trying to cure the problem, just a temporary fix.
I never go for the temporary fix. That I think is what gets the kids and dogs in trouble. This attitude of quick, and temporary fixes. And the problem with them is that they treat the symptoms of the problem and not the under lying cause. Which gives people a false sense of accomplishment. Often it back fires by making the problem worse when it resurfaces.
Exactly. That is what causes dogs to "bite out of the blue." Their warning signals were suppressed in the past. Dogs don't just suddenly turn aggressive fo no reason. People who are unskilled or uneducated in canine body language, communication signals, calming signals, in other words, people who believe that dogs share our value system and should understand that something is "unacceptable" train in this harsh, stern way with lots of force and corrections. We may think something is unacceptable and it is in our society. But to just "tell" a dog that this is unacceptable by a leash yank or whatever does not change his thinking about that. He does not have the conitive ability to logically reason all that out. "Oh, they don't like that thing we dogs do with our teeth to settle differences. Oh yes, that's right, they have lawyers and police." OK....this what I just did was unacceptable in their society and by their morals." No....dogs don't think like that. So, to say, that something is unacceptable doesn't get humans anywhere with dogs. Teach the dog in terms he can relate to. Dogs do things that work for them. They're opportunistic, they're selfish, they're out for themselves. They aren't out to please you. Only indirectly because by pleasing humans got them left overs and all kinds of neat stuff when they were evolving. It's about survival. They do things so they can survive, reproduce and pass on their genes. They like humans because it works to like humans. If you want your dog to do something, make it work for him too....make there be a payoff so he'll want to work for you. This is so much easier than having a power struggle and forcing a dog to work for you.
Gosh, I just wish people would try.
Gosh, I just wish people would try.
Get the dog away from the child or the child away from the dog. Get inbetween if you have to, yank the dog back with his tail if you have to....you have to do what you have to do to stop an attack. Hell, if a dog was in the act of killing someone and there was no way to pull him off and I could get a clear shot, I'd shoot him. When it's happening as in right now, you interrupt him. You stop it. You do not worry about training right then. You go then and make a stategy, a plan, something based on canine behavor and learning that will work. It's not always a head on, obvious fix. It's usually a round the back door kind of thing, steps which lead to something and some more steps which build a solid fix where the underlying issue can be totally dealt with. If it can not, then management must be the way....keeping the dog away from children or euthanizing. But hitting, striking, scolding in the presence of children as a cure......BIG, HUGE MISTAKE!
Melissa, are you bi-polar or something? Weren't you the one in a prior thread about harsh adversives saying how glad you were you were American Indian living alone on a mountain because it gave you such a primal connection with your animals so you didn't have to use those methods? Or was that all a complete lie to fit in with the general consences of the thread?
Its a dishonest tactic, people use it to discredit others. Its akin to accusing somebody of being sexist, that a womans only place is in the home, or asking somebody if they still beat their kids, or being accused of playing the victim. The implication is there for others to see and to watch you struggle to defend yourself while the accuser sits back and laughs.