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jason_els

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#21
I'm sorry you feel that way. I hope you can also appreciate that I feel like I have numerous people each telling me something a little different and each one getting offended I don't do what they think is best.

I physically cannot take them out every 30-60 minutes around the clock every day for 3-4 months or longer. I would be dead from exhaustion. If someone tells me they do this then I have to say I have a hard time believing it. You'd have to be a superhuman who has everything delivered, doesn't need to work, has no requirement to ever leave the home, and apparently doesn't need REM sleep.

How did people manage to have housetrained dogs before crating? This is a serious question because what I'm hearing here is this is the only way to do it and every other method results in unreliable dogs. I don't believe that argument at all because I've had dogs and know people who've had dogs who weren't crate trained and they were completely reliable.

Anyway, I started this thread in hopes of trying to find a compromise that results in successful housetraining while allowing me to live. I've gotten some great ideas and I've been reminded of the importance of separating the dogs. Even if we don't agree on everything, I hope you know that I do appreciate the dialog and am very grateful for the assistance. It's a big help to me. Really! :D
 

Saje

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#22
I'm sorry you feel that way. I hope you can also appreciate that I feel like I have numerous people each telling me something a little different and each one getting offended I don't do what they think is best.

I physically cannot take them out every 30-60 minutes around the clock every day for 3-4 months or longer. I would be dead from exhaustion. If someone tells me they do this then I have to say I have a hard time believing it. You'd have to be a superhuman who has everything delivered, doesn't need to work, has no requirement to ever leave the home, and apparently doesn't need REM sleep.

How did people manage to have housetrained dogs before crating? This is a serious question because what I'm hearing here is this is the only way to do it and every other method results in unreliable dogs. I don't believe that argument at all because I've had dogs and know people who've had dogs who weren't crate trained and they were completely reliable.

Anyway, I started this thread in hopes of trying to find a compromise that results in successful housetraining while allowing me to live. I've gotten some great ideas and I've been reminded of the importance of separating the dogs. Even if we don't agree on everything, I hope you know that I do appreciate the dialog and am very grateful for the assistance. It's a big help to me. Really! :D
The things you have been told are not sinking in. Doc gives you one last resort option and you automatically leap on it over having to put in the time otherwise. You work at home. It should be easy for you to crate train. Yes there will be times when you will be gone more than three hours. That's normal and you work around it. You haven't give your pups a change to get used to a schedule or a new home before you quit on one program and switch to another.

We've told you again and again that you don't have to get up every 30 minutes during the night. Once should be enough. Especially once they get used to a schedule.

What will you do if you ever have a human baby in the house? If they wake you up you'll just leave them so they don't disrupt your REM? Seriously, it is frustrating. I'm not one who usually pushes crates but with two baby pups it is for their (and your) best interest. They will have some structure, which dogs need. They will be safe and content so you can get some work done. They will be easier to housetrain. And everyone can have some peace of mind. I just wish that would sink in. Yes people have tried other methods and eventually many of them will work.

But just ask doc or any other trainer on this board about the clients they have to deal with who have gotten in over their head. These people know what they are talking about!
 

Buddy'sParents

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#23
First, I just want to say that getting ONE puppy is hard work. Night and day- you breathe puppy. The puppy is the most important thing for a period of time as you adjust yourself and him/her to you, you create a bond and figure out who the other is.

Now, you've just gone bonkers and gotten TWO puppies. That is just down right crazy. :yikes: :lol-sign: But, you have made this commitment and for any person with an ounce of honor and respect, you have got to see it through.


The first weeks are always the hardest as they adjust to me and I adjust to them.
Absolutely! We got Buddy at three months and we were cheated on the first week of his life with us as he spent it in an ICU at a pet hospital. But, when he finally did come home, it was a happy time....filled with letting him out to piddle, us taking him on out a leash to do his business, training, loves and cuddles and absolutely freakin' adorable puppy moments.

Annnnd, there were accidents in the house. These were not 'bad puppy' accidents, these were 'bad human' accidents. You must have the time to dedicate to proper house training (and training period) or you will not be happy and your puppies will not be happy. This is all adjustment!

I am not sure of the situation of the pups, but since they are 9 weeks, I am going to assume that you got them from a breeder.. these pups have gone from living the life with mom.. playing with their littermates, eating tons of food and peeing and pooping as they saw fit.

And now, all of a sudden, they are put in a pen, being praised to high heavens for doing natural things like peeing and pooping and they have a stressed out owner, living in a stressful environment.

[
I My guys do not sleep through the night. They need to pee every 2 hours.
They need to pee every two hours or you are dragging your tried behind out of bed every two hours and making them pee?

What I'm not quite getting is if it's unreasonable to expect an 8-week old pup to be housetrained because they can't physically hold it, then it sounds like I'm setting them up to fail by trying to train them to do something they can't physically accomplish.
A puppy does not come with an adult sized bladder, nor the feelings/notions associated with how small their bladder is and oh! that means they have to piddle! Of course it's absolutely unreasonable to expect an 8 week old puppy to physically hold their fluids for a prolonged period of time. But, you knew that and were just testing our knowledge, right?

Are you also saying they should spend all time in the crate (save for potty breaks)? Should they not have a play area inside?
Of course not! We had baby gates and Buddy was only allowed in the main living area and kitchen. If we needed to go upstairs or leave the main living area, he was crated as that meant he was going to be left unattended. Being left unattended usually means trouble! lol And, that trouble may very well be peeing or pooping, eating something that you thought was puppy proofed originally, etc.. Crating is not just for housebreaking but that's another thread in itself.

What if I have to do something that takes longer to do than 2 hours? This is my biggest issue. Even grocery shopping can take 2 hours. Any other shopping definitely requires going over 2 hours as my town is pretty small and we have to drive everywhere. Every 30 minutes with even one puppy is simply impossible as I'd never get anything done, I'd never sleep, I couldn't work, I couldn't shop, I couldn't do anything.
Did you not know that having a puppy was full time work? It's a little like having a baby... full time. There is a defenseless being that needs you.. trusts you and is depending on you for all of their needs. You have taken on the responsibility of being that person that they can turn to. Suck it up and take it like a parent.. because that's what you are now.
By about 8 months all the dogs of myself and my family have been mostly housetrained and by a year they're completely housetrained. You praise and encourage going outside but don't scold if they use the newspaper.
Why would you want to encourage or praise the behavior of elimination IN THE HOUSE? No wonder it took 8 months.. poor dogs were probably very confused!

The Weather Channel just had a vet on saying a puppy shouldn't go outside when it's under 25F.
How long does peeing take?

I'm not discounting what everyone is saying. You all have impressed upon me the need for a second crate and I will do that. See? I'm not completely unreasonable :) . Ian Dunbar has a picture of a crate pen in his book. It shows a crate with food and water in a small pen with a potty place. You crate train the dog to use the potty area for times you can't directly supervise the dog. When the dog is old enough to hold for substantial periods of time, you train for always going outside. He argues this sets-up the dog for success while allowing the dog to eliminate when it needs to when it's younger. That's the method that appears to work best for me. When I'm home and not sleeping, they go outside. They wake me in the morning and as soon as they do they're outside with me and then we go out every 2 hours until bed time. Times when I'm away for longer than 2 hours or asleep, I leave the crate open so they can use the newspaper.
I have always been under the impression and understanding- that a dog would never pee in it's den... I'm not discounting what Ian Dunbar says, I have a couple of his books, but again, why would a dog WANT to eliminate in their den?

Lastly, yes, folks, this post will indeed end....

Instead of thanking everyone for their replies and saying that they are helpful, I really suggest a good look at all of them. Are you sure you're reading and understanding or are you being defensive in what you have done so far? You have some people on this here thread who have been dog owners for years and years.. you even got two very good trainers and a breeder doing their best to give you advice. I would not take that for granted. ;)

Oh, and you've only had the pups for a few days.. saying that something is not working out is because you have given up.. things need time to work themselves out!

Now, I need some dinner and a nap.. that was long!
 

jason_els

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#24
OK, here's a scenario:

First: Both in crates except for the after-poopee safety window when they're with me. I've read the window is anywhere from half an hour to a full hour. If it's not, please let me know.

Here's a sample schedule:

8am -wake, take out dogs, give food and water.
10am - take dogs out again, play with Boomer then Tweeter, replenish water as necessary
12pm - take dogs out again, play with Tweeter then B, re water
2pm - take dogs out again, feed both, train with Boomer then T, re water
3pm - take dogs out again, re water, train with Tweeter then B, re water
5pm - take dogs out again, train with Boomer then T, re water
6pm - take dogs out again, train with Tweeter then B, re water
8pm - take dogs out again, allow pups to play together, re water
9pm - pull water from both
10pm - take dogs out again, quiet play with Boomer and then with Tweeter.
12am - take dogs out again, no play
4am - take dogs out again, no play
8am - repeat

Does this sound like a reasonable schedule for 9 week-old pups? Please feel free to tweak it. I've kept a schedule of what they're doing at various times. Here it is for the past 2 days:

Sunday 2/11

Up at 7:30am
both pee
Tweeter pooped 8:30am (accident)
Both pee, Boomer pooped at 10:30am
Lunch at 11am
both pee 11:30am
nap at 11:40am
2:30pm both peed, tweeter vomited in car
3pm tweeter pooped
3:30 belated lunch
3:45 boomer pooped, both peed
4:15 both asleep in crate
6pm took away food, both peed
6:30 both nap
8:15 tweeter peed (accident)
8:16 boomer peed outside
8:25 playing
9:05 went back to sleep on their own, took away water
10:15 both woke, boomer pooped, both peed
10:25pm both played.
10:45pm both asleep

Monday 2/12

midnight - both pee, Tweeter poops
2:15 both pee, tweeter poops
3:00 vet day. no worms, boomer nearly a lb larger than tweeter.
4:30 both pee, tweeter threw-up in the crate in the car.
fed at 6pm, tweeter threw-up, boomer may have thrown-up in crate in car.
7:45pm both pee, boomer pooped
8:15 half hour with each one-on-one petting, touching them all over. both ok with touching. boomer slept then wanted to explore. tweeter just slept
10:05 both woke, both peed and pooped! played for half an hour. came in and played some more until 11:20.

I'm really trying here. I want this to work, I want to do crate training if I can, I want them to be happy and healthy dogs.
 

Saje

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#25
Are you free feeding them? That will really slow down your housetraining as well.
 
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#27
That's what I was wondering. Free feeding will make things much more difficult. Getting them on a 3X/day schedule is the best way to go.
 

jason_els

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#28
Yes, I am for now. I wasn't aware that it causes issues.

Right now they're on Evo. Should I just feed them a set amount per day broken over 3 feedings (or two?)? Or should I allow them to eat as much as they want for a limited period, like 15 minutes per meal?
 

Saje

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#29
Feed them set meals three times a day. EVO might be too potent for them. It's an excellent brand but you might want to go with Innova's regular brand, which is for all life stages I believe. Breaking up their feeding is helpful in housebreaking because they will get on a regular schedule. It also helps you keep track of who is eating how much, what their regular appetites are like and if anything changes. KEY in case of medical problems.
 
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#30
You have to keep at it until they do hold it inside. This takes months.

I got BD at 6 weeks, he was taken from his mom at 5 weeks. The people I got him from had started paper training him, that actually kinda helped because he allways trys to find something to get it on rather than the floor, still does. He is 2, I sleepwalk if I shut my bedroom door with a dog on the other side I will most likely have to clean something up in the morning.

Verde came housetrained, she's had an accident or 2. She gets excited and cant hold it, or when she got her shots.

When I go to my parents house they spend a fair amount of time in the garage, or outside as my stepdad isnt fond of dogs in the house due to the cats. Both know to sit and stare at me if they need outside, so thankfully no accidents there. They are allowed inside as long as they are calm.

You asked for this burden when you got a pair of littermates. Dont shirk the responsabilities for your choices. You knew this would take alot of work and sacrifice even before you started, deal with it. You are failing to live up to you sig.
 

sam

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#32
I think it's extremely admirable the amount of thought and care you are putting into these pups. CLICK! If everyone was this conscientious the world would be a better place for dogs.

If you go the paper route as Doc described, it may take your dogs longer to figure things out. To me, that's just fine and perfectly reasonable at 9 weeks.
It's not realistic to think everyone can be around every 2 hrs or 30 mins for their pups until they are trained. I'd rather see someone provide a place for pups to relieve themselves when they are so little than crate them for a bit too long and end up with dogs peeing in crates or being uncomfortable from being expected to hold it too long. If you are really consistent your dogs will learn. You'll be cleaning up messes for longer - your choice, your dogs won't mind ;) .

What I would tweak--

I would encourage you to add a small but VERY appealing treat to your
dance-party-celebration when the pups do pee/poo outside. :D

We humans tend to be awfully stingy be nature and think that somehow rewarding our dogs with food should be avoided or cheapens the relationship somehow. Not so. What it does do is make that moment EXTRA MEMORABLE and noteworthy in the dogs mind.
We praise and love on our dogs for all kinds of things.Talk is cheap as they say. You have basically one primary goal with the pups right now and that's helping them learn where to eliminate. Make it stand out in the dogs mind.
I would chop up last night's left over chicken/steak/cheese into tiny cubes and keep some handy in my pocket for pottying outside.

Imagine a scenario if you will.

You boss comes by and says "Good job Jason. Thanks for the hard work" nice!

Now imagine she comes by and says "Good job Jason. Thanks for the hard work. Here's a $1000 bonus cheque"

Which boss sees a hige increase in productivity? And lucky for you your business won't go under from paying your 'employees' too much.
 
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jason_els

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#35
You asked for this burden when you got a pair of littermates. Dont shirk the responsabilities for your choices. You knew this would take alot of work and sacrifice even before you started, deal with it. You are failing to live up to you sig.
One pup or 10, it doesn't matter. The problem isn't with the number, it's with the schedule and method.

Thanks for the drive-by poop fling. :(
 
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#36
One pup or 10, it doesn't matter. The problem isn't with the number, it's with the schedule and method.

Thanks for the drive-by poop fling. :(
I dealt with it with a 6 week old pup **edit** with a full time job **edit off**, you can deal with 2 9 week old pups. Adjust and adapt, live up to your sig.

I was able to make it work.
 

jason_els

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#37
I think it's extremely admirable the amount of thought and care you are putting into these pups. CLICK! If everyone was this conscientious the world would be a better place for dogs.

If you go the paper route as Doc described, it may take your dogs longer to figure things out. To me, that's just fine and perfectly reasonable at 9 weeks.
It's not realistic to think everyone can be around every 2 hrs or 30 mins for their pups until they are trained. I'd rather see someone provide a place for pups to relieve themselves when they are so little than crate them for a bit too long and end up with dogs peeing in crates or being uncomfortable from being expected to hold it too long. If you are really consistent your dogs will learn. You'll be cleaning up messes for longer - your choice, your dogs won't mind ;) .

What I would tweak--

I would encourage you to add a small but VERY appealing treat to your
dance-party-celebration when the pups do pee/poo outside. :D
Thank you Sam! [WAGS TAIL]

I've bought 3 different treats (cheap and expensive) in as many days including bologna slices today. I offer them bits of them and they sniff it, lick it, then drop it. I'm going for string cheese as soon as I can leave the house. We're a bit snowed-in at the moment.

I will try the crate method again (as soon as I can get out to buy another crate). I'm hoping to get responses to my proposed schedule to see if it's ok for me to try it with them.
 

sam

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#38
String cheese is a great idea. Very handy and usually popular.

I just used liverwurst as a treat and my dogs went NUTS for it. Literally drooling. That was a first:lol-sign: You could carry the tube around and just give them a wee taste.baby food meat/chicken would work too you could keep the jar by the door and grab it as you go out then let them lick a bit off your finger.

The not eating thing will change when they are a bit more settled in I bet. If they don't seem food motivated right now I would forget dog treats and just stick with meaty human food. If they don't take it right now, that's ok.
 

jason_els

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#39
SajeThank you for that advice. I'll move them to a 3x a day schedule. The links are great. I've bookmarked them!

How many hours before bed would be a good time for the last meal and how soon afterwards should I pull water for the night?
 

jason_els

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#40
buddy's parents said:
They need to pee every two hours or you are dragging your tried behind out of bed every two hours and making them pee?
That's a good question. They do pee every time I take them out.

I liked your post very much. It got me to re-evaluate and reconsider crate training.
 
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