[B]White dobermans[/B]

Zoom

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#61
Ok, since horse genetics have been introduced by someone else...I know that there are only two "actual" colors in horses, red (chestnut) and black. Everything else is a variation or dilution of those two colors. Am I correct in assuming that it's similar/same in dobes then, that there are Red and Black and everything is based off those two?

Frame overos are like merles. Breed two of them together and you will more than likely end up with a lethal white, and unlike dogs, where the pattern/"lethal" whites are more affected in vision and hearing but usually live to a decent age, lethal white foals usually die within a few hours of birth due to either a blocked intestine or an autoimmune deficiency. Those that don't die immediatly are usually euthanized to minimize any further suffering on the foal's part.
 

poeluvr

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#62
Question:
Are we talking that like out of every 100 white dobes born 2 or 3 will die at birth, or like 50, just wondering too, lol?
 

doberkim

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#63
no clue poe - i am not sure if there is any data on this - but i dont think its necessarily that they die at birth. the health concerns appear later - eye problems, not able to handle sunlight, skin cancers, etc. they arent necessarily born with these (though eye problems can be genetic and present at birth - therefore congenital).


zoom - it would be AWESOME if we could talk horse coat color genetics - there are SO MANY different colors around, it makes my head swirl! tell us more!
 

Melissa_W

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#64
Zoom said:
Ok, since horse genetics have been introduced by someone else...I know that there are only two "actual" colors in horses, red (chestnut) and black. Everything else is a variation or dilution of those two colors. Am I correct in assuming that it's similar/same in dobes then, that there are Red and Black and everything is based off those two?

Frame overos are like merles. Breed two of them together and you will more than likely end up with a lethal white, and unlike dogs, where the pattern/"lethal" whites are more affected in vision and hearing but usually live to a decent age, lethal white foals usually die within a few hours of birth due to either a blocked intestine or an autoimmune deficiency. Those that don't die immediatly are usually euthanized to minimize any further suffering on the foal's part.
I believe that blue and fawn a result of dilution. However, the albino gene is a separate gene that masks the other colors.

Black dogs can be BBDD, BbDD, BBDd, or BbDd
Red dogs can be bbDD, or bbDd
Blue dogs can be BBdd or Bbdd
Fawn dogs can ONLY be bbdd

Now, what does this have to do with albinos?

As reported in the September 1984 Pipeline (the official publication of the DPCA), an albino to fawn breeding (not sponsored by the DPCA) produced all black puppies. Remember, the fawn parent MUST be bbdd -- it has NO copies of the dominant black gene, and NO copies of the dominant non-dilute gene. Since the fawn dog produced black puppies, both the black gene and the non-dilute gene MUST have been contributed by the albino parent. In addition, other breedings have proved that an albino dog bred to any colored dog which does not carry the albino trait will produce all colored puppies. Therefore, the albino trait is not dominant to either the black or dilution traits. This means that a dog must carry two copies of the albino gene in order to hide the other color traits.

These breedings prove that the albino trait is not in the same gene series as either the black trait or the dilution trait. The albino trait must therefore be inherited at a separate site. Further, the albino/fawn breeding also proves that the albino trait in Dobermans is "epistatic" -- which means that it covers or "masks" the effect of both the black and dilution traits when the dog has two copies of the albino gene. The albino involved in the albino/fawn breeding had both the dominant black and the dominant non-dilution trait, so it would have been a black dog if there had been no albino genes present. Since it did have two copies of the albino gene, both the black and non-dilution genes were "masked" or "hidden". That's why the albino gene is often referred to as a "masking gene".
 
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yuckaduck

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#69
lethal white foals usually die within a few hours of birth due to either a blocked intestine or an autoimmune deficiency. Those that don't die immediatly are usually euthanized to minimize any further suffering on the foal's part.
I use to breed paints and this is 100 % true.

That does not mean white foals are bad it means certain genetics producing white lethal foals is bad. Most white are horses are born black as well, most not all!
 
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Whitedobelover

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#70
actually melissa not all whites are photosensitive my blue is mroe than Prince they both wear doggles hehehe but more as a fashion statement than anything hehehe... not necessarily for photosensativity... just some dogs are some arent... Prince doesnt squint hehe he just looks right into the sun and keeps right on going...
 

elle

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#71
elizabeth - your dog is also very young still. many of the problems associated with whites do not occur until much later in life... if a puppy under six months old is seriously ill, there is much more to be worried about than simply what color he is...


people have touched on it, but the reason that many consider albinism deleterious to the Doberman is not simply for aesthetic reasons - many genes are pleiotropic. in simple terms, this means that they control more than one thing. for example, a gene might control whether a mouse is yellow and whether it is viable. right now, there is anectdotal evidence that albinism in Dobermans goes along with other serious health problems. until there is factual evidence to refute this (which there is NOT), one must go on the assumption that either the mutated gene is pleiotropic or linked to other genes that can cause undesirable qualities. Thus, these animals should NOT be bred.

Elizabeth, what your friends do really has little to do with what you know. Kim is my best friend, but that does not make me a vet! Also, if you think one can be accepted into one of the best vet schools in the country and study veterinary medicine for four years with little to no knowledge of genetics, you are sorely mistaken.

If your friend would like to come and talk genetics here, that would be great... But, anyone who knows even the slightest bit about genetics can see the glaring flaws in your reasoning. (Again, a dog's genome cannot "come back" at a locus... that's like saying, I found my house, it was in my closet).

(I'd also love to talk microbio with you... That's the area of biology that I'm currently doing research in... I'm working on a very exciting project right now: I am testing the effects of azole antifungals on mycobacteria models in vitro... we hope to eventually elucidate a new treatment for tuberculosis!)
 

Doberluv

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#72
Somewhere else, Elle presented a thorough and convincing explanation, complete with evidence BACKED up with data originating from some very reputable sources, I believe some universities' studies and proven, conclusive findings. Unless anyone can provide evidence to the contrary, it is most absurd to argue a condition of irrefutable fact. Debating or arguing opinions is another thing. This is clearly not a matter of opinion. We go round and round and STILL....I patiently await... even a molecule of evidence to the contrary of what Kim and Elle are stating. Oh... why must I endure this tedium? LOL. :rolleyes:
 
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Lexus

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#73
I'll be the first one to say I don't know jack about genetics, other than what I've learned from Kim and Elle on this forum and others. But I think it is pretty clear from the evidence at hand that a white doberman is an albino. Doesn't matter what color his eyes are.

I also think it is pretty much not argueable that the albino dobermans for the most part suffer problems not associated with the allowed colors. Some don't, I'm thankful for them that they don't, but if the majority of them do, WHY would anyone breed them!! Elizabeth, you said a while back for health and temperment, but as so many have health and temperment issues, WHY breed them? All comes down to money.

You keep saying that you will post VALID information that whites are not albinos. I can't remember looking back that you said it on this forum yet, but on so many others you have, but then when called out about it, you just disappear. If you want to end the albino debate, just give us the evidence that proves your point.

And Elle's right, I never made any mention of genomes....
 

joce

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#74
I do know about genetics. Took every class my high school and college offered on it. It really helped that one of my professers did rescue too because he always brought up the puggle and such other"breeds" nonsense. I never asked him about albino dobermans,thank god they aren't a problem around here!
 
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yuckaduck

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#75
Sorry for bringing up and old thread and being to darn lazy to read the whole thing...but I thought an albino had red eyes? Whitedobelovers white dobe has blue eyes. So does that not mean that white and albino's are two different things?


Here is the definiation I found for albino's

true
albinos with pink eyes -- are reared on a large scale for pets or for use
in scientific laboratories, and for crossing with variously colored races
in breeding experiments. In general, these animals are preferred because
they thrive in captivity and are tamer than their wild and colored
relatives.
So to me that would mean that whitedobelovers white dobe is not albino.

I am confused about this. :confused:
 

joce

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#77
Wrong again! Read the links yuckaduck adn it explains it. i think melissa pointed it out earlier in the post. Albino people don;t have red eyes,the ones I have met anyway :p

Look at WDL pups and her rescue. they are the smae right? Look up any albino dobe and they are all the same.
 
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Whitedobelover

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#78
it isnt red eyes they have red pupils lol... which still takes prince out... and most dont have red eyes occasionally i have met one with red eyes but my other albino friends have blue eyes with really deep red pupils
 

doberkim

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#79
yuckaduck said:
Sorry for bringing up and old thread and being to darn lazy to read the whole thing...but I thought an albino had red eyes? Whitedobelovers white dobe has blue eyes. So does that not mean that white and albino's are two different things?


Here is the definiation I found for albino's



So to me that would mean that whitedobelovers white dobe is not albino.

I am confused about this. :confused:
you can research albinism anywhere -- even in people, albino people do NOT have red eyes! they can have blue, green, brown eyes - you name it.


http://www.albinism.org/publications/ocular.html



yuckaduck - i believe the link you are speaking of is referring to rats, right?
 
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Whitedobelover

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#80
no they dont have brown eyes or green eyes. they have piercing blues eyes generally and red pupils... lol they generally never have any other color eyes... lol
 
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