[B]White dobermans[/B]

poeluvr

New Member
Joined
May 11, 2005
Messages
1,905
Likes
0
Points
0
#1
http://home.alltel.net/workdobe/dpcalies.htm
...this is interesting two side.. whos right. im not doing this to start anything..actually only mean t to ask one person but since people asked to continue this on another thread, i would like to figure out the answer, for the interest of a friend of mine?
 
Joined
Jul 18, 2005
Messages
1,564
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Stratford Ontario Canada
#2
DPCA has good info On why White Dobermans Should not be Bred.I agree,I used to breed Dobermans for 5 years.Any Breedings that Produce White offspring should never be repeated.In my opinion all White Dobes should be Sexually altered.All White Producing Dams and Sires should be taken Out of the Breeding Programs as well.
 

doberkim

Naturally Natural
Joined
Oct 14, 2005
Messages
1,380
Likes
0
Points
0
#3
ill repeat this here, since i dont know where the convo is going :)

the author of that website is the breeder of whitedobelovr's doberman, prince william (the phantom line is her albino line).

i ask this simple question -
what proof - scientific proof - from a reputable institution, lab, or in a peer reviewed journal, has shown that albino dobermans are in fact, not albino. i have asked before to see one ounce of proof - primary source proof. i have never received any.

i have nothing against the dogs already in existence - they should be loved and treated well - i just disagree with breeding them.

if you want an albino doberman, rescue one. they are all over rescue.
 
Joined
Jul 18, 2005
Messages
1,564
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Stratford Ontario Canada
#4
doberkim said:
ill repeat this here, since i dont know where the convo is going :)

the author of that website is the breeder of whitedobelovr's doberman, prince william (the phantom line is her albino line).

i ask this simple question -
what proof - scientific proof - from a reputable institution, lab, or in a peer reviewed journal, has shown that albino dobermans are in fact, not albino. i have asked before to see one ounce of proof - primary source proof. i have never received any.

i have nothing against the dogs already in existence - they should be loved and treated well - i just disagree with breeding them.

if you want an albino doberman, rescue one. they are all over rescue.
Good post hon.I dont agree with any White Doberman Breeding either.
 

poeluvr

New Member
Joined
May 11, 2005
Messages
1,905
Likes
0
Points
0
#5
...ok guys im not getting one and i am making a new thread because you guys wanna discuss it..im not even getting one. This is why i didnt want to start this thread. For fear people would say that im promoting animal cruelty..this is something to discuss... not to tell people off..thats all i have to say
 

doberkim

Naturally Natural
Joined
Oct 14, 2005
Messages
1,380
Likes
0
Points
0
#6
who has said anythign about animal cruelty, who has said anything about telling people off?

people can disagree and do so respectfully and like mature adults, and not share an opinion, and the world will not end. the internet is full of boards where people share their opinions, and frankly, if everyone agreed all the time, the world would be a very boring place. we have different opinions and we are allowed to share them, that is the beauty of it.

no one has told anyone off, and no one has accused you of animal abuse.
 

poeluvr

New Member
Joined
May 11, 2005
Messages
1,905
Likes
0
Points
0
#8
doberkim said:
who has said anythign about animal cruelty, who has said anything about telling people off?

people can disagree and do so respectfully and like mature adults, and not share an opinion, and the world will not end. the internet is full of boards where people share their opinions, and frankly, if everyone agreed all the time, the world would be a very boring place. we have different opinions and we are allowed to share them, that is the beauty of it.

no one has told anyone off, and no one has accused you of animal abuse.
nobody. I am saying i dont want this to be turning into, everyone telling me to rescue one..i dont know if you were just applying that to everyone..i just dont want to be the subject of this discussion.. and feel that im responsiblle..if people end up not liking eachother because of this...just a thought..doberkim its ok..im just saying ..you dont have to pound question upon question..im not accusing, just making sure this thread goes in the right direction..sorry for not explaining it right:)
and guys once again its not me whos getting the dog(im getting a st.bernard:)). i dont want this to be about me..just the topic in general. i made a new thread because people said they found this interesting and all:)
 

Melissa_W

New Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Messages
4,290
Likes
0
Points
0
#9
From http://whitedobes.doberinfo.com/

Are "white" Dobermans really albino?

"White" or "albino" Dobermans are not actually white animals. They are a pale tan or cream color, and only the areas which would normally be rust-colored are actually white. Also, these Dobermans have blue eyes -- not pink or red eyes. Because these dogs are not white and because they have blue eyes, some people claim that they are not actually albino.

pigmented fur -- The problem here arises because of a confusion about terminology. As discussed above in the "what is albinism" section, the terms "albinism" and "albino" encompass a wide range of pigment disorders. Many albinos -- known as "partial" albinos or "tyrosinase-positive" albinos -- do have some pigment. There are human albinos that may have yellow or brown hair, and some that can even tan in the sun. There are also non-human albinos with some pigment, in several different species. For instance, the "chinchilla", "beige", "himalayan", "burmese", "cremello", and "mink" mutations in mammals such as mice, gerbils, rabbits, horses, and cats are all thought to be due to mutations in the "C" series of genes (the tyrosinase-producing genes), and can therefore be considered types of albinism.

In fact, most types of albinos do have some pigment. Only "complete" or "tyrosinase-negative" albinos have a complete lack of any pigment. But notice that even the albinos with some residual pigment, the "tyrosinase-positive" albinos, can accurately be called "albino" -- and the mutations producing these albinos are still generally affecting either the tyrosinase, or "C", gene, or sometimes the "P" gene see the "what is albinism" section above. The terms "albinistic" or "albinoid" can also be used, but "albino" is indeed an accurate term even if residual pigment is present.

hair structure -- Hairs from several albino Dobermans were compared by a veterinary expert to hairs from normal black, red, and blue dobermans, as well as hairs from complete albino cats and white whippets. These comparisons, performed by Dr. David Prieur, determined that melanin pigment granules (melanosomes) are severely reduced in both number and in pigment content in the albino Dobermans, as compared to normal Dobermans. In addition, the melanosomes which do exist are significantly enlarged, shaped abnormally, and distributed unevenly. The albino Doberman hair shafts are distorted, and the diameter of the hairs is variable. In some ways these findings are similar to the hairs of blue and fawn dogs, whose hair also contains enlarged and abnormally distributed melanosomes. However, the albinos that were examined were NOT genetically dilute animals (they all carried B and D alleles, and were probably BBDD animals), and the albinos had a severe reduction in number and pigment content of the melanosomes, while melanosomes in blue and fawn dobermans are numerous and have normal pigment content. In contrast, the white whippet hairs (the result of an extreme spotting trait) had NO melanosomes, smooth hair shafts, and a constant hair diameter; and the complete albino cat hairs had large numbers of melanosomes which contained no pigment, also with smooth hair shafts of constant diameter.


blue eyes -- Even many complete albinos have blue eyes. For instance, the NOAH albinism site states "A common myth is that by definition people with albinism have red eyes. In fact there are different types of albinism, and the amount of pigment in the eyes varies. Although some individuals with albinism have reddish or violet eyes, most have blue eyes. Some have hazel or brown eyes." see the quote here.
Also, the International Albinism Center states "Iris color is usually blue/gray or light brown.... It is a common notion that people with albinism must have red eyes, but in fact the color of the iris varies from a dull gray to blue to brown. " see the quote here.

Eyes which appear blue can be produced without pigment because of the phenomenon of refraction. It's important to remember that the structure of the iris often has more effect on the apparent color of the eye than the absence of pigment itself. Think of the sky. Is there any blue pigment in the sky? No, of course not. So why does the sky look blue? It looks blue because the dust particles in the sky refract (scatter) light in a specific way, and light of different wavelengths is refracted differently. The structure of the iris in some species allows absorption, refraction, and filtering of the light that hits it, so that the eye may appear blue even when there is no pigment in the iris.

As stated by Dr. Mark Ladd, a veterinary geneticist: "The iris colour in an adult dog is determined by two layers. An inner layer, which gives rise to the blue eyes present in all puppies just after birth, is not pigmented; the blue colour arises because of an absorption of the longer wavelengths of white light before reflection back...The outer layer gives rise to the dark eye as it becomes pigmented from melanin production in the eye....Albinism means the complete absence of melanin pigment (Searle, 1981).If one accepts this view, then dogs such as the white Dobermanns, with blue eyes, can be termed albinos." In fact, blue-eyed albino mutations are known to occur in several different species. As stated by William Oetting (a widely-known expert in albinism from the University of Minnesota), "The blue eyes is consistent with albinism. Dogs have an iris which is blue if it contains no pigment (same as the Siamese cat, for example, which also has a type of albinism). Animals with little or no iris (mouse, rat) have pink eyes."

Additionally, as mentioned above albinos can even have BROWN eyes -- and the color of an albino's eyes can change over time. To repeat a quote already mentioned in a previous section, from the International Albinism Center: "An important distinguishing characteristic of OCA1 is the presence of marked hypopigmentation at birth. Most individuals affected with a type of OCA1 have white hair, milky white skin, and blue eyes at birth. The irides can be very light blue and translucent such that the whole iris appears pink or red in ambient or bright light. During the first and second decade of life, the irides usually become a darker blue and may remain translucent or become lightly pigmented with reduced translucency. " see the quote here. Interestingly, at least one albino doberman is known to have been born with blue eyes and has developed gold eyes along with darker fur pigment during his second year of life.

conclusions -- All current evidence supports the conclusion that "white" Dobermans are indeed suffering from some type of albinism. Like other "tyrosinase-positive" or "partial" albinos, they have a diffuse loss of pigmentation in the fur and may accumulate pigment with age. Like other albinos, they have unpigmented skin and eyes. Like other albinos, the trait is inherited as a simple recessive trait. Like several other types of albinism, they appear to have abnormal melanosomes. In fact, nationally recognized geneticists agree that these dogs are albino. Several experts in genetics, albinism, pathology, and ophthalmology have agreed that these dogs appear to be albinos, including G.A. Padgett, D.F. Patterson, M.F.C. Ladd, W.S. Oetting, J.P. Scott, and David Prieur. Interestingly, not a single expert in any of these fields has reached any other conclusion.

Dr. Oetting has stated "It sounds as if the dogs do indeed have albinism. ....These dogs sound like they have OCA1 resulting from mutations of the tyrosinase gene, a major gene in pigment formation."

G.A. Padgett, DVM, Professor of Pathology, has stated "I would agree with Dr. Patterson's suggestions (1982) that this is probably a mutation in the C series. I believe it is an albino, although not the classical pink-eyed tyrosine negative animal which we associate with this term. They are phototypic, and I believe there is little disagreement with this statement". Dr. Padgett also lists albino dobermans as partial albinos in his book Control of Canine Genetic Diseases.

David J. Prieur, DVM, PhD, of the WSU Dept. of Veterinary Microbiology and Pathology, has stated "Several years ago I expressed my concern regarding the breeding of 'white' Doberman Pinscher dogs. I expressed the opinion that the gene for the white coat was a deleterious gene and that the Doberman Pinscher breed would be better served by not incorporating this gene into the gene pool of the breed. Although these 'white' Dobermans have been shown not to be true albinos, they are tyrosinase-positive albinoids with a severe reduction of melanin in oculocutaneous structures.There have been numerous defects described in animals of other species with genes of this type.....I am unaware of any information, published or presented, since I originally expressed my concerns, which would lead me to believe that this gene is not deleterious."

Dr.M.F.C. Ladd, a British veterinary geneticist, has stated "Albinism means the complete absence of melanin pigment (Searle, 1981). If one accepts this view, then dogs such as the white Dobermanns, with blue eyes, can be termed albinos.....Unless much more evidence is forthcoming, I feel that the white Dobermann should be looked upon as an abnormality, known to exist and hoped to be avoided."

And J.P. Scott, PhD, a geneticist at Bowling Green State University, has stated: "Photophobia would constitute somewhat of a handicap to a working dog"; and "Something must be done. I realize that most breeders are responsible, selecting strains that seem good. But once an undesirable trait enters a breed, it is not an easy thing to eliminate".
 

poeluvr

New Member
Joined
May 11, 2005
Messages
1,905
Likes
0
Points
0
#10
..yes what melissa is saying is what we should do ..like discuss it..debate it..you know..
 

Melissa_W

New Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Messages
4,290
Likes
0
Points
0
#11
poeluvr said:
nobody. I am saying i dont want this to be turning into, everyone telling me to rescue one..i dont know if you were just applying that to everyone..i just dont want to be the subject of this discussion.. and feel that im responsiblle..if people end up not liking eachother because of this...just a thought..doberkim its ok..im just saying ..you dont have to pound question upon question..im not accusing, just making sure this thread goes in the right direction..sorry for not explaining it right:)
and guys once again its not me whos getting the dog(im getting a st.bernard:)). i dont want this to be about me..just the topic in general
Nah, she was just saying that anyone who wants a white dobe should rescue, not buy from a breeder. I don't think it was directed towards you exclusively. I've thought about adopting a double merle sheltie, aussie, or great dane. But of course I don't think that they should ever ever ever be bred.
 

doberkim

Naturally Natural
Joined
Oct 14, 2005
Messages
1,380
Likes
0
Points
0
#13
poeluvr said:
..yes what melissa is saying is what we should do ..like discuss it..debate it..you know..
and that is what we are doing! not everything in this post is directed at you - you started the topic, and we are debating it!!!
 

Melissa_W

New Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Messages
4,290
Likes
0
Points
0
#14
Does albinism affect health?

General health -- The albinistic syndrome may be accompanied by a wide range of health problems. Some types of albinism affect the immune system, liver, or clotting ability, and others may cause other physiological abnormalities such as defects of the kidneys or thymus, anemia, inner ear defects, megacolon, neurological abnormalities, skeletal defects, microphthalmia, osteopetrosis, spina bifida, and sterility, just to name a few. Albinism in general predisposes animals to skin cancer as well as photosensitivity/photophobia. In some species, some types of albinism are even lethal! So it is easy to see that albinism is NOT just a matter of pigment, it's a deleterious mutation which affects the whole body.

Unfortunately, these health problems have not yet been studied in a controlled manner in the albino Doberman. However, as with the behavioral effects of albinism, there is no reason to suspect that the health effects of albinism will be any different in Dobermans than in other species. For instance, I know of at least one albinistic Doberman who suffered from severe progressive neurological problems, and was eventually euthanized for them. I know of another albino who suffered from megaesophagus, another neurological abnormality. Also, many owners of albino Dobermans have reported that their dogs squint in bright light, have poor vision, and are unable to remain in the sun for any significant length of time without burning. Several albino Dobermans have been reported with skin cancers. And, as discussed elsewhere, one of the best-known albino stud dogs died with malignant melanoma, at less than six years of age.

Vision -- Albinism always affects vision. As mentioned in the "what is albinism" section, the official term for most types of albinism is "oculocutaneous albinism". It is called that because the albinism effects both skin AND eyes. As the NOAH site states, "People with albinism always have problems with vision, and many have low vision. Many are 'legally blind'...Vision problems in albinism result from abnormal development of the retina" (the "fovea", which is normally the part of the retina responsible for the clearest vision, is underdeveloped because of the lack of pigment), "and abnormal patterns of nerve connections between the eye and the brain" (the optic nerves are misrouted at the point where they would normally cross over). "It is the presence of these eye problems that defines the diagnosis of albinism. Therefore the main test for albinism is simply an eye exam." see the quote here. Note that this does not mean simply shining a light in the eyes, but may involve electrophysiological recordings and other specialized testing which, in dogs, will probably require anesthesia to complete. These tests have not yet been performed in albino Dobermans, to the best of my knowledge.

Also note that the CERF eye examination, commonly used to detect congenital ocular defects in dogs, will not detect several of the visual problems associated with albinism. Vision problems experienced by albinos (human or non-human) may include nystagmus (rapid back-and-forth movement of the eyes), strabismus (crossed eyes, wandering eye, "lazy" eye, "wall" eye), photosensitivity/photophobia, either hyperopia (far-sightedness) or myopia (near-sightedness), and/or astigmatism (blurred vision), as well as a loss of depth perception caused by the abnormalities in the optic nerves. These problems can been seen in both "complete" and "partial" albinos (for instance, Siamese cats often have crossed eyes and/or other vision abnormalities, and "white" tigers also often have crossed eyes). Obviously, visual deficits would be a serious handicap for a working breed of dog. Also, the poor vision suffered by albinos may be a partial explanation for the aggressive and/or fearful behaviors often reported in albino Dobermans. There have been multiple reports of photosensitivity/photophobia from owners of albinistic Dobermans, as well as reports of extreme nearsightedness (such as an inability to recognize family members from across a room and inability to chase balls) and severe lack of depth perception (such as difficulty climbing stairs or problems with falling off of a porch). Photophobia in these dogs was also confirmed by ophthalmologic exam, as reported in the Summer 1987 issue of Doberman Quarterly. Unfortunately, as has been confirmed by CERF officials, CERF certification exams will not detect far-sightedness, near-sightedness, astigmatism, photophobia, or depth-perception deficits, or the optic-nerve abnormalities caused by albinism.

Longevity -- The oldest albinistic Dobermans for which I have any verifiable records are three dogs who have reached eight years of age (two alive and one dead), three living nine year olds, one who is alive at ten, and one trustworthy report of another dog who died at 10 years of age (please let me know if I've missed any). In contrast, it is easy to find normal Dobermans living 12, 14, or even occasionally as long as 17 years. In fact, as I mentioned above, a widely used albinistic stud dog -- Duke, the first albinistic Doberman to complete the WDCâs ãhealth evaluationä certification program -- died in October of 1999, at five years of age. Of skin cancer. (Interestingly, the dead 10 year old I know of -- one of the early albinos back in the 1980's -- also died of skin cancer.) Another well-known albino stud, Thunderidges King of Diamonds (Yoda), died at six years of age in November of 2000.

Recently, the White Doberman Club (WDC) has initiated a Longevity Program similar to that run by the Doberman Pinscher Club of America (DPCA). However, the WDC has elected to award Longevity Certificates to any dog who reaches seven years of age -- while the DPCA awards its certificates only to dogs reaching TEN years or older. The difference in age requirements raises an interesting question: why is it necessary? Has the WDC not been able to find albino dogs living long enough to meet the ten year cutoff?
 

poeluvr

New Member
Joined
May 11, 2005
Messages
1,905
Likes
0
Points
0
#15
ok i already stated i was wrong..no need for getting upset. chill(there is a reason i put happy faces) sorry doberkim, its hard to communicate on the computer ..sometimes
i was gonna say , it seems that white dobermans a re dangerous to breed hardly any people have anything good to say of them..the only pro white doberman thing i got was that which i showed you.
here is another forum which discussed, most say im beleiving what i learned from a person who showed me the pro white doberman site is wrong:www.geocities.com/Athens/1878/dobefaq.html ..edit
 

Zoom

Twin 2.0
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
40,739
Likes
3
Points
36
Age
36
Location
Denver, CO
#16
Lea, why do you think that is? From what Melissa posted, the white gene is a genetic abnormality and causes many different health problems. Personality and temperment I imagine stay the same. But, if you want Dobie personality, then get an accepted color Doberman. I'm using the generic form of "you" here, by the way, not the specific "you".

There will always be faniciers and proponents of genetically quirked animals. It's what makes them interesting and unique, and way back in the beginning of time, those abnormalities are most likely what drew us to developing the breeds we see today. Dwarfism, gigantisism, odd coloration...the fondness for unique looks seems to be the sole property of humans. The rest of the animal world tends to shun and exile those that look too different from the rest of the pack/herd/group/flock.
 

poeluvr

New Member
Joined
May 11, 2005
Messages
1,905
Likes
0
Points
0
#17
Zoom said:
Lea, why do you think that is? From what Melissa posted, the white gene is a genetic abnormality and causes many different health problems. Personality and temperment I imagine stay the same. But, if you want Dobie personality, then get an accepted color Doberman. I'm using the generic form of "you" here, by the way, not the specific "you".

There will always be faniciers and proponents of genetically quirked animals. It's what makes them interesting and unique, and way back in the beginning of time, those abnormalities are most likely what drew us to developing the breeds we see today. Dwarfism, gigantisism, odd coloration...the fondness for unique looks seems to be the sole property of humans. The rest of the animal world tends to shun and exile those that look too different from the rest of the pack/herd/group/flock.
i have posted multiple times im not getting one....i was never gonna get a doberman of any colour..(im not on the side of pro white dobermans)..i even tried to change the subject to that i was now beleiving how dangerous breeding whit dobes can be
so far i misinterpreted one thing, and you guys are now jumping down my throat..im done..talk about with yourselves..and what ever problem with me your planning on bringing ..no point im gone from this thread totally k..
 

Melissa_W

New Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Messages
4,290
Likes
0
Points
0
#18
Lea, you're being too senstive... Zoom said she was using the "generic" you... she wasn't talking specifically to you.

Along the lines of what you were saying Zoom, if people want an dobe that's an unusual color, I don't see why they can't just get a blue or fawn colored dobe. You don't see those everyday.
 
Y

yuckaduck

Guest
#19
poeluvr said:
i have posted multiple times im not getting one....i was never gonna get a doberman of any colour..(im not on the side of pro white dobermans)..i even tried to change the subject to that i was now beleiving how dangerous breeding whit dobes can be
so far i misinterpreted one thing, and you guys are now jumping down my throat..im done..talk about with yourselves..and what ever problem with me your planning on bringing ..no point im gone from this thread totally k..

No one is jumping down your throat. No one is directing at you.

I'm using the generic form of "you" here, by the way, not the specific "you".
by Zoom

See not directed directly at you. Do nto take things so personally we are only trying to educate anyone who chooses to read this. Like me because I happen to kinda think the white dobes are nice looking. Maybe in future not for a while of course but in future get one. I knew nothing about them and now I would never get one. If I ever make the decision to get a dobe it will be black/tan. Thanks for allowing me to learn something!
 

poeluvr

New Member
Joined
May 11, 2005
Messages
1,905
Likes
0
Points
0
#20
ok guys..im just slow..im out of he loop and confused..its ok:)..i think you guys would do better without me being in this thing and confusing y'all while your trying to talk about this,,,im not the sharpest crayon in the box..lol.. i wasnt being sensitive im just totally lost..its ok though guys keep talking..this is interesting..im messing it up i know..ignore me..lol..im tired probably
 
Top