New puppy and small dog - NEED HELP managing play!

Hi I have a new addition, an 11 week old pitbull puppy. I also have a mixed breed (possibly a Bordie Collie/Pomeranian mix) who is 2. So my issue is with the puppy constantly playing too rough with my older dog. My older dog does not seem to get upset by this kind of play however he is a small dog (only 16 pounds or so) so what ends up happening is the puppy will mouth/wrestle etc on top of my adult dog but my adult dog can't seem to get out under. Thing is the puppy will STAY on top of my dog and not let BACK OFF to give him a chance to reverse the roles. My dog has not really been correcting the pup (a few times he yelped but puppy would not read his correction) but normally it seems once I remove the puppy off, my adult dog will want to revert right back into playing so it gets the puppy all wound up again! The puppy also has a bad habit of constantly grabbing onto my adult dogs fur like it's some tug toy. This has been very frustrating. So this has been going on for a couple of weeks now.

I have been trying to redirect his attention when this happens, when he stops this behavior I have him sit/look at me/treat. Sometimes the puppy listens, sometimes he is too engaged and does not. I've also tried removing him from play and placing him in a separate room/behind a gate/crate. Then in a few minutes letting him out and resuming play. I can do this over and over and he still will go right after my adult dog with the rough play.

Thing is the puppy is getting big quick so i would like to teach him that with my dog he needs to play GENTLE and his play style can only reach a certain point. I spend alone time with both everyday working on obedience, puppy is enrolled in puppy class, etc, etc.

I want to be consistent with my methods. I thought of teaching "gentle" or maybe "off" or "leave it" just not sure which would be most effective (if I should use different cues for different instances) or just stick to one. I'm all for positive training, but sometimes he is just super stubborn, not sure if a rattle of a can of coins would do the trick just as a slight startle to redirect his attention as once he gets into his mode he is pretty focused?

It's not only the play style he pushes my adult dog out the way a lot or goes straight to trying to get on top of him. Sometimes he initiates nice play, other time he just goes straight after mouthing his face, being on top, head/paw over back...at this age I'm sure he it's just all play behaviors although the head/paw thing seems like he is trying to show dominance.

Any other suggestions that might work I am open to and would greatly appreciate it! Thanks!

I have a Bouvier des Flandres and a Shih Tzu. My shih tzu was 11 years old when we got the Bouv puppy, and they were the same size for 1 week. Then the Bouv puppy quickly overtook her in size.

I had to discourage all play entirely, as my senior shih tzu was not interested at all, but kept getting bullied. So the puppy learned a solid "leave it" command, and I had to use it frequently. We also gave the senior dog a lot of privileges that the new pup didn't have - access to furniture, eating in private, sleeping on the bed,etc.

Large size differences can be a tough thing to manage, but you really do owe it to your older dog to protect it.

Now, at 14 months, the Bouvier mostly leaves the Shih Tzu completely alone. Unfortunately, if the shih tzu runs anywhere, the Bouv thinks it's an invitation to play and starts in at her. I step in immediately.

Yes that is a big size difference and age difference as well! The thing is my dog "wants" to play with the puppy it's just sometimes the puppy get's too dominant in play. He doesn't give him a chance to reverse roles.

I definitely will work on reinforcing "leave it". That I'm sure will help a lot once he has that command more solid. I just feel like I am constantly intervening, not sure with maturity if it will help or even maybe neutering as soon as possible? Or maybe besides working on obedience, etc finding dogs more of his play style that can/will correct him when he gets too rough?

I would try to find playmates of a similar size and temperament to play with your puppy, though I realize this can be very difficult. Daycare was fantastic for us when our Bouv was younger - he loved it, and got to play with many different breeds and temperaments. Unfortunately I can't take him anymore, since he's not neutered and I don't intend to do it any time soon.

Neutering isn't going to help your situation, and for many health reasons, I suggest you do some research on the detrimental effects of early neutering on orthopedic health and cancer risk of large breed dogs.

Keeping the puppy tired will also help, though puppies also need a lot of time to rest and sleep. Lots of brain work and physical exercise will help, but again, it's not going to completely fix the problem.

It sounds like you're handling it fairly correctly, you probably just need to do a little more intervening, especially if the older dog isn't correcring or is insitigating.

Separate them when they become too rough, as you're doing. redirect the puppy frequently during play, and in this situation if he's on top of the older dog I'd try to call him to you once and if it doesn't work or he goes back, immediately end the play session. As he grows he may accidentally hurt the other dog, so even if the other dog isn't correcting this yet, you need to.

He needs socialization with other dogs as well, so he can learn more dog body language and interact with dogs that will actually gently correct him - if he doesn't heed their warnings to calm down, you step in and redirect or remove him. You'll need to be very consistent at home and during other socialization, so he knows that playing roughly always results in his play session ending, every time, and he doesn't think he'll get away with it once in a while.

It's ok if he spends a fair deal of time separated from your other dog, crated, whatever. As long as he's getting enough exercise, he needs to earn the privilege to be free around other dogs, and it sounds like they need to be monitored.

Keep in mind that obsessively playing with other dogs (unable to redirect), shaking them in play (I don't know if he does that when grabbing the fur), and refusal to reverse roles in play (never letting your older dog on top) can be warning signs of potential DA, so I'd be very proactive about positive socialization and carefully monitor his time with your other dog. Do lots of activities where they aren't wrestling, such as going on walks together.

Thanks for the feedback, all good advice. He doesn't shake while playing so I'll take that as a good sign and "sometimes" the roles reverse but normally if my dog let's put a yelp.

So just now something happened that I'm not sure exactly how to interpret it. So my dog was just sitting down looking like he was starting to get tired and it all happened fast, the puppy just jumped towards him. My dog got startled and let out a growl and snapped at him. For the first time ever the puppy cowered away, which I never seen this siDE of him. Then my pup went to lay on his bed and just looked over at my dog lookin at him then looking away with a very confused look. Puppy then proceeded to let out a low growl almost with some barking. So I let them be separate for a while
Later I had them together again and the puppy still seemed unsure (normally he is very advanced towards my adult dog) so thus is a behavior I'm not used to. My dog then went over to him and liked his face am went away.

So all seemed ok like maybe he learned and this was a correction he needed...but now puppy starting going over to my dog trying to kick his privates and kept putting his head over his back, he wasn't being aggressive towards him but I'm taking these were dominant behaviors. Anyway my dog seemed uncomfortable and would slowly move away. At this point I thought it was a good time they take a break. They are both sleeping in their crates now.

So the growling of my puppy, should I be concerned about this? He was acting so perplexed like he wasn't sure what to do. But after he growled fir a while he laid spread out on the floor and just looked at my dog so I'm not sure what to take of this behavior. He also just goes over and mouths and holds his fur a lot, not shaking but I'm just used to seeing happy go lucky pups and he just seems almost annoyed by my adult dog as he pushes, nudges him an awful lot.

Sorry for the long post just want to make sure I handle this correctly , it's just getting really exhausting. I knew it was going to be a lot of work and managing im just starting to wonder if they will ever get along and the puppy learn to respect my dog, as of now i am constantly intervening.

There are some knowledgeable people on here that I hope can help you.

What you are describing is quite different than the dynamic that was in my house. Here, it was 100% pure puppy goofiness, all the time. I never ever had to wonder about his intentions towards my older dog.

I hope your situation turns out to be the same thing, as it's actually been fairly easy to manage here.

How old was the puppy when you brought him home? What was his situation prior to you getting him, was he with mom and litter mates?

11 weeks is still EXTREMELY young, and most behaviorists and breeders don't recommend puppies be seperated from the litter/mom much earlier than that, so I don't think you should be feeling like it's an abnormally long or frustrating amount of time. You'll likely be very closely supervising and managing them for a number of more weeks minimum, and that's not out of the ordinary.

It's a good sign the puppy respected the correction from the older dog, but hopefully his growling was more curious vocalization or playful and not aggressive? If you are very concerned you may want to consult with a highly recommended trainer or preferably behaviorist in your area, who can actually observe them interact. However, I'd just keep doing what you're doing and be patient, it can take a while for puppies to learn manners, especially around a dog that doesn't correct them or give calming signals.

Do they ever relax together when they're tired of playing? Or do they always go until they're separated?

Thanks I hope so and I appreciate your response. Everyone keeps telling me at his age it's just pure puppy bully breed behavior...and while some of it is play bowing goofy play there is a lot of pushy, nudging, paw/head over back, going straight to mouthing face, before actual initiation of play, that is what I'm questioning as he does this a lot. It just seems like constant rude behavior not the happy go lucky pups I'm used to so not sure what to make of this body language...I'm also told as he matures this will get better but Im just wondering now if that will be the case.

I got him from a very good breeder. They do just relax sometimes it just seems like when my dog is ting to relax he the puppy will approach him and do the head paw behaviors as I mentioned. He does do normal play behavior but it's only when my dog is in the mood so to speak. If my adult dog is just walking around or resting the puppy will act in these rude behaviors I would call it. I am in the process of practicing mat work with him as he is catching on to that very quick so I'm going to try to get him to settle on the mat in conjunction with the time outs, etc.

I'll look into a trainer as well, I want to nip this now while there is not such a big size difference.

In my personal experience (I raised an APBT puppy with an older, somewhat tolerant dog, and I have been around many others), YOU need to be the primary source of playtime for the puppy. APBT are pretty intense and even as young puppies are often too much for other dogs to handle, even in play.

I would play with Rhys for extended periods of time, lots of tugging and puppy appropriate fetching. The flirt pole is your best friend. Refrain from letting the puppy jump but he can chase on grass pretty much to his heart's content. I used play time to reinforce an 'out' command and a solid 'leave it'. By the time he was four months, Rhys was consistently 'outing' with toys and tugs.

Only after he was good and tired would I let him interact with my older dog. I would allow a little bit of play if my older dog, Henry, seemed interested, but if he got irritated by Rhys I would separate and either put Rhys in a quiet place or give him more exercise/training. When Rhys was that age, I was playing with him for a couple of hours a day, broken into 10-15 minute blocks. I also introduced safe chew toys and and reinforced quiet self-play.

Rhys had two sets of shots by that point so I started walking him. I wouldn't let him potty anywhere but our yard, but I would walk him around the block multiple times a day with my older dog. When he got tired I would carry him. Very puppy appropriate walking with lots of breaks and water.

The key with this breed is setting boundaries. These guys (in my experience) are 110% in everything they do. You have to give them outlets and options besides just free play-they get wild way too quickly.

That makes a lot of sense thanks! So did you use baby gates to separate them throughout the day? I will try tiring him out more before play with the puppy and also walks together sounds like a good idea. He might just have excess energy he needs to release. I guess I've just been so busy trying to manage their every move maybe they just need more time apart for now.

Was your apbt very pushy in the behaviors I described in mine? If so did he grow out of this in time?

That type of play sounds extremely typical of the breed/type. And could just be personality, puppies have different play styles and not all are as reserved as typical calmer pets.

IME they don't really grow out of it...you or other dogs can encourage them not to play like this or teach them enough about dog-to-dog communication where they'll learn not to play with older, calmer, or smaller dogs that way, but most of the APBTs I know do play in that style if left to their own devices, and continue to play that way with each other/other larger, rougher dogs into adulthood. They wrestle hard, they're physical dogs in everything they do, whether snuggling or fighting or playing.

I got Kris my Doberman when she was 11 weeks old. I have four Shih Tzu x Maltese so even at that age, she was bigger than them. I had to pretty well keep them separated unless I was right there to get her to leave them alone. My Shih Tzu x, Remmy, was the best teacher as he hated being stepped on and would go right after Kris and she would lie down and not move till he let her up. If she stepped on one of the others and they yelped, Remmy would be right there. I never stopped him from correcting her as I knew he would not hurt her and he never left a mark on her even though she yelped sometimes. He taught her to respect the small dogs and they all get along good now but it did take quite a while.

Yea I guess with the breed/size differences the management is going to be much different compared to two breeds of similar personalities. I guess all I can do is continue obedience training, one on one time, excerise, and continued supervision when they are together.

Thanks for all the feedback, it's really helped put more of this into perspective for me.

I know there's no quick fix but what are your thoughts of something to startle the pup once play gets too rough (which mainly is him not role reversing/staying on top of my dog and the advances with little warning). For instance maybe give a command such as off and leave it depemding on which curcumstamce it is and if he doesn't comply rattle a can of coins or another detergent to get his attention? As he really is just so caught up in moment redirectin doesn't seem to work most of the time so basically I've been picking him up to remove but obviously I will only be able to do this for so long...

Personally, I would not advise it. It might work find for some dogs, but for others it may startle them in a negative way (scare or upset either the pup OR your older dog) and create a negative association between their reactions (IE your older dog may think that the noise is caused by the pup standing over him and lash out aggressively towards him, or vise versa).

As he gets too big to lift, I'd attach a leash to his collar (have it ready during playtime) to lead him away, lure him with a treat, or use a squeaky toy or something to get his attention.

If you do use a noisemaker, I would only do it if you're confident that neither of your dogs will really be startled by it, but it will get their attention, and make the noise as soft as possible. Reward them for separating when they do (they won't think the reward is for playing roughly, they'll know it's because they've listened to you to stop playing).

Another option could be a squirt bottle, which has the same concerns as the shaker but tends to be less upsetting to noise sensitive dogs and IME a little "safer".

Mostly, I'd just keep doing what you're doing, try not to get discouraged as it sounds pretty normal, and work hard on a leave it command and a recall, using high value treats in a non distracting environment and slowly work in more distracting environments.

Yup goid point about the can, my older dog is kinda "soft" so I'll use the squirt bottle but only as a last resort. I'll keep working on obedience especially leave it and recall, thanks those too will be the most important!

I got my work cut out but I'll keep being consistent, thanks so much

I used baby gates and crated my APBT frequently when they needed to be separated.

And yes, my puppy was very confident and very pushy. He was with his mother and litter mates, as well as other adult APBTs at the breeder's, until he was 10 weeks, so he was very accustomed to rough play and being right in the mix of things.

It was a management process but it will get easier. Within a couple of months it was like there had never been a problem. My goal was to teach my dogs how to live together peacefully- I never had the idea that I wanted them to be playmates or best friends. Their personalities and breed characteristics were just too different.

I got Rhys, my APBT, for myself and for very specific reasons, so I am very grateful for the time and effort I put into his early training. And although Rhys is aggressive to many strange dogs, he is excellent with Henry because of the work I put in. Both dogs are very gentle and respectful of each other, and get along splendidly now as adults- Rhys is two and Henry is nine.

Yes there personalities and play styles are very different so it's only natural it will be lots of management for a while. I took your advice and played/walked the puppy before having them together and it was a world a difference. In fact my puppy barely batted an eye at my dog or cat. He just went straight to his bed to lay down. What I started to see too is just a few play sessions throughout the day also made a difference, it's like I was constantly saying no or off, he also needs time to be a puppy and play with ME. It's only been a day but I've taken in all the advice and I already see improvement. It's going to take a while sure but the work I put in is the work I'll get out of it! Thanks all of the feedback has really helped a lot and I'll continue to implement it everyday

I'm glad you got good advice and you're on the right path! I just wanted to let you know that my boy was similar when he was a puppy (although I didn't have him as young as you have yours). When initiating play with my mom's Dachshund he would try to push her over and paw at her because puppies (like toddlers) are super awkward and don't really know how to interact appropriately. Doing what MM said- pulling him away every time he starts to get too rough- is exactly what worked with my guy. He struggled with reading her corrections so when she gave him avoidance body language I would say "nope" and walk him away. It took about month (they don't live together, only saw each other a few times a week, and he was 5 months) but now he ignores her like a champ as soon as she gives any signal that she doesn't want to play. Same with small dogs at the dog park. Your puppy will get there : )