Anti-Breeder Attitudes?

Lyzelle

Active Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2012
Messages
2,826
Likes
0
Points
36
Location
Colorado
#81
They are indirectly contributing to the unwanted pets problem though. Because if none of those breeders bred, people who want a dog would have to rescue one, and one less dog would be killed in gas chambers
This logic doesn't really float. If someone wants a cheap dog, they are going to get a cheap dog be it from petshop, BYB or shelter. If they want a well-bred dog, they *might* settle for the perfect rescue. But someone who is looking cheap will always look cheap unless they think they are getting a GREAT deal on something (supposedly) rare, special, etc. unless otherwise educated.

I want a Rhodesian Ridgeback. I'm not going to the shelter and picking out a Dobe. That just not how people in a marketing system work. When there are plenty of avenues for them to get EXACTLY what they want, they aren't going to settle for anything less, let alone something completely different. Rarely it happens, but it isn't common.

People who want a Border Collie might look for breeders first. When they get turned down, they'll go to rescue. When that is a headache, they'll pick something up from a shelter or petshop/BYB. When that dog turns out to have serious mental or physical issues, they dump it on someone else. That is how the general public works.

The "breeders are taking away homes from shelter dogs" logic just doesn't float in the general dog market.
 

crazedACD

Active Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
3,048
Likes
0
Points
36
Location
West Missouri
#82
I think conformation is great (fantastic!) in theory, but from what I've seen in recent times..is relatively useless in determining if a dog should be bred. If conformation is taken for what it is right now, it is more a testament to the handling, grooming, and campaigning abilities of the exhibitor. It kind of blows my mind that two dogs of a breed can be at extreme opposite ends of their type, and both have a Ch or be winning. I don't know where you would start to correct this. It would almost be better to go before a board of people, have the dog's angles measured, conformation completely evaluated and scored, and that's that.

I started looking at Australian Shepherd breeders a little while ago and was kind of...taken back by the breeders upon breeders who only show in conformation. There was a very definite divide between the show-type and working type. And you know what, the working type still looked like Australian Shepherds. Some of the stuff I was going over noted that many of the show line Aussies did not have sufficient herding instinct to still do that job, as it hasn't been selected for.
 

Fran27

Active Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Messages
10,642
Likes
0
Points
36
Age
46
Location
New Jersey
#83
I've never seen any small dog in shelters here. So I'm not talking at all about small dogs or breeders of rarer breeds. I'm talking about breeders that keep breeding breeds that shelters and rescues are overrun with.

It has nothing to do with cleaning the bad breeders' messes or anything though. It's more about the fact that some people will still get a dog from a breeder when there are 10 dogs or puppies of the same breed at the local shelter... it just beats me. Yes, it's not their responsibility, but still.
 
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
7,099
Likes
1
Points
38
Location
Illinois
#84
I've had rescues up until the Koolies but if I hadn't gone the breeder route they wouldn't have been substituted for a dog from a rescue. I was looking for a very specific breed, one that almost all purebred dogs didn't manage to fit but I found in Koolies.

Maybe if I had done extensive searching I would have found it in a rescue, that's very possible. But, I'm burned from that with bad nerves and health issues. That isn't to say I'll never rescue again, there are a ton of dogs I see being rehomed that I would jump at in the right circumstances. But these weren't them and I refuse as someone who takes care of my dogs, who keeps them contained, trained and from reproducing indiscriminately is just as responsible for dogs dying as the people who got dogs they couldn't handle or keep or breeders who breed anything with four legs for money.
 

kady05

Active Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2011
Messages
1,285
Likes
0
Points
36
Age
36
Location
Chesapeake, Virginia
#85
I've never seen any small dog in shelters here. So I'm not talking at all about small dogs or breeders of rarer breeds. I'm talking about breeders that keep breeding breeds that shelters and rescues are overrun with.

It has nothing to do with cleaning the bad breeders' messes or anything though. It's more about the fact that some people will still get a dog from a breeder when there are 10 dogs or puppies of the same breed at the local shelter... it just beats me. Yes, it's not their responsibility, but still.
So you're basically saying that all breeders of APBT's or Amstaffs should stop breeding?

Yeah. No thanks.


Oh and also, I should've clarified my original post about if it's okay for breeders to breed for "pet" dogs. When I said "no", I didn't mean that only dogs with conformation titles should be bred. I like the total package, which is why I got Sako from his breeder. She has dogs that show conformation, and also do Rally/OB, weight pull, agility, dock dogs, etc.

I just don't agree with breeding dogs that have very obvious faults where you're 99% likely to get a litter of pet quality pups. Or breeding for a name in the pedigree.. that drives me nuts.
 

Emily

Rollin' with my bitches
Joined
Feb 13, 2008
Messages
2,115
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Illinois
#86
I've never seen any small dog in shelters here. So I'm not talking at all about small dogs or breeders of rarer breeds. I'm talking about breeders that keep breeding breeds that shelters and rescues are overrun with.

It has nothing to do with cleaning the bad breeders' messes or anything though. It's more about the fact that some people will still get a dog from a breeder when there are 10 dogs or puppies of the same breed at the local shelter... it just beats me. Yes, it's not their responsibility, but still.
So I have a passion for Labs, let's say (LOL). I research my pedigrees, health test my potential breeding dogs, I title them in a couple of different venues. I just. love. Labs. My dogs are very well bred, healthy, and a real joy to be around for the average family.

So now, because Jim Bob down the street produces 6 litters a year and tosses 50% of them at the pound when they don't sell for $300 like he was hoping, I'M supposed to stop breeding, and people are supposed to stop buying from me because Jim Bob's hyperactive, dysplastic dogs are in the county shelter for $50?

No. I really can't say much else besides, "No." And I can't imagine it being to difficult to see why MY pups and Jim Bob's shelter pups ARE NOT interchangeable.
 

AdrianneIsabel

Glutton for Crazy
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
8,893
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Portland, Oregon
#87
It boggles my mind to think someone would propose a selective breed ban on breeding. You can breed your shiba inu but hey, you, with the Malinois, stop breeding, NOW! Don't you know we're having a population control issue ??

Shameful. If its not one breed it will be another.

Linds, how dare you not rescue a black lab mix from the high kill shelter? It wouldn't suit your life and be fair to the dog or you? Tough luck.
 
Joined
Apr 4, 2011
Messages
3,199
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
St. Louis, MO
#88
For me, a big issue is if reputable breeders were to stop, we would lose all the gains we have made in health, temperament, etc!

Breeding purely for pet, yeah I am not really ok with that. I do strongly feel the parents should be better than "just pets" (which is NOT a slam, all of my dogs are just pets!) and contribute more to the future generations. I do not think conformation is the only way to go, but I do think the parents should be judged by independent peers on different qualities. If someone is doing obedience, or agility, or therapy work, actually working a "job" etc...that for me can count.
 

Emily

Rollin' with my bitches
Joined
Feb 13, 2008
Messages
2,115
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Illinois
#89
For me, a big issue is if reputable breeders were to stop, we would lose all the gains we have made in health, temperament, etc!
This x10!!! I mean, my god, I love, LOVE, LOVE the pit bull type dog I rescued from the street (Mustard!) but holy CRAP was he a mess. He had just about every common structural problem you see in poorly bred APBTs. Great temperament, but his poor body... out at the elbows, no rear angulation, slipping hocks, straight shoulders, etc. I love him, but to suggest that there are so many rescues we don't need the well-bred dogs is to doom the breed. ESPECIALLY in the common breeds where they are so often poorly breed that many have serious issues!
 

PWCorgi

Priscilla Winifred Corgi
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
14,854
Likes
0
Points
36
Age
34
Location
Twin Citay!
#90
Responsible breeders aren't part of the problem because if I can't/don't get the dog I'm looking for from a breeder, I'm not going to get a dog.

Keeva wasn't a substitute for for a rescue dog. Had a small, purebred, registered, drivey puppy not been available to me, I wasn't going to go out and rescue an adult pit bull.

There is SO much more to this problem than just X number of homes vs. Y number of dogs in shelters. That is not the equation we're looking at here.

And tbh? It's incredibly unfair to suggest that "Idiots breed their dogs and then sell them to idiots who dump them in shelters, so YOU, breeders who have had 3 carefully planned litters in the past 5 years and have never contributed to the shelter population, and YOU, buyer who carefully researches and plans out your breeder purchased dog, are responsible for cleaning up their mess. YOU should stop breeding, stop buying, because of what THESE people are doing." I just.... no. No, I'm not. That's not to say I don't sympathize with rescue dogs or that I won't help, but to truly suggest that a dog who is carelessly bred, carelessly sold, and then thoughtlessly dumped is the obligation of those of us who have been nothing but responsible with our animals is... unreasonable. I help these dogs because I love dogs and I don't want them to suffer, but to say that I'm contributing to the problem by choosing a well-bred puppy is... just wrong.

ETA: And no, I don't buy that it's only morally excusable to buy a dog if it's not a breed that's commonly in shelters. Again, there is so much more to this equation than that.
:hail::hail::hail:

I've never seen any small dog in shelters here. So I'm not talking at all about small dogs or breeders of rarer breeds. I'm talking about breeders that keep breeding breeds that shelters and rescues are overrun with.
Um...whut? So continuous breeding of small and fluffy is okay? Just not labs and pits?

And seriously, just because you don't see small dogs where you are doesn't mean there isn't tons and tons in shelters. We have a HUGE number of chis, yorkis, and whateverpoos in shelters around here, but hardly any hounds. In PA, smaller dogs were harder to come by, but beagles and coonhounds overran the shelters. So maybe pit bull breeders in Jersey should just stop breeding? :cool:
 

Dekka

Just try me..
Joined
May 14, 2007
Messages
19,779
Likes
3
Points
38
Age
48
Location
Ontario
#91
I have also pointed out why is it that those doing it responsibly have to stop? Those not producing dogs filling shelters have to stop.. yet those doing it "well they always will because they are bad.."

I also don't see why consumers bare no responsibility. Its like people want to fix it by removing the choices people have so they have to choose what a certain group deems appropriate.

I think I will ask them the next time why they have children when there are children needing homes... Yes they SHOULD adopt that crack baby and look after it! How dare they make more children as long as ONE child needs a home!
 

crazedACD

Active Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
3,048
Likes
0
Points
36
Location
West Missouri
#92
On another note..I tend to adopt highly adoptable dogs. Of course I've done my far share of rescue, but if I walked into a high kill shelter...I'm looking for a herding breed (usually attractive, spotty coloring),young, that isn't reactive, has a good recall, good with dogs cats and strangers. Shrug. Depending on the area...this type of dog is most likely to be adopted anyway. I don't think I'm really doing much to help that 8 year old black lab mix get out of there, or the am bulldog with DA and skin issues, or whatever. I don't live in an area with high kill shelters, but when I did, I rarely saw a well-bred attractive lab without issues (physical/behavioral).

I also don't really want to make a decision in haste...ideally, my next dog will be for competition OB, herding, agility..sports. Am I really going to be able to evaluate an adult dog for this at a shelter? Will I have time to come back a few times and get a feel for the dog? I don't want to be guilt tripped into getting a certain dog either..if I know it has a euth date, and I determine the dog is unsuitable for what I want after visiting with it...I would still have a tough time walking away.
 

Emily

Rollin' with my bitches
Joined
Feb 13, 2008
Messages
2,115
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Illinois
#93
I have also pointed out why is it that those doing it responsibly have to stop? Those not producing dogs filling shelters have to stop.. yet those doing it "well they always will because they are bad.."

I also don't see why consumers bare no responsibility. Its like people want to fix it by removing the choices people have so they have to choose what a certain group deems appropriate.
I know!!! I think that's what really gets me. I mean, WTF? Why is the person having litter after litter in their freaking garage not responsible??? Why is the person who buys a 6 wk old puppy out of a dirty backyard kennel not responsible?

Why is the person who dumps their dog at the shelter not responsible?
 

Fran27

Active Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Messages
10,642
Likes
0
Points
36
Age
46
Location
New Jersey
#94
So why don't you just say you really don't care if the dogs in shelters don't get homes then? You wouldn't want them anyway because they're not the perfect dog you're looking for... I just think it's a bit hypocrite to pretend to love dogs yet be ok with that, that's all.

But for the average person who just wants a lab and will probably not bother to research the breed at all, or the breeder for that matter, I think those anti-breeders ads have a point. Maybe you could spend some time educating them instead of just unfriending them... I'm guessing 99% of people have no clue what a good breeder is.

And no, you're not making any gain in health and temperament when all the puppies are sold as pets and won't be bred anyway...

And comparing dogs to human babies... seriously? :rolleyes:
 

crazedACD

Active Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
3,048
Likes
0
Points
36
Location
West Missouri
#96
Why is the person who dumps their dog at the shelter not responsible?
Oh come now, it's not the person who dumps the dog, it's the reputable breeders and the person putting the needle in the vein. Yep. I'm sure people that rehome privately are also at fault. Shameful.
 

Maxy24

Active Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2006
Messages
8,070
Likes
2
Points
38
Age
32
Location
Massachusetts
#97
This is something I still struggle with, even though I love finding breeders for people and am making a breeder directory as we speak. It's sort of a clash between emotion and logic.


I do GET the anti breeder point of view. Not the whole they only breed for money thing or that they are causing the problem, that's false, but I get the "if there were no breeders fewer dogs would be killed" mentality. If there were no breeders then people who want dogs (most, I suppose some would just not own dogs) would go to shelters and rescues, and many, many dogs would escape death and get good homes. Most people would be just as happy with their rescue dogs as they would be with their breeder dogs because most people go to breeders for good pets, and most rescue dogs make good pets. So I definitely get that sentiment.


But that ignores the human component in a lot of ways. A person wants their ideal pet, and for some people it's a lot easier to find that ideal pet when you get to choose a specific breed that has all of those ideal traits and go to a breeder who works to preserve those breed traits (so a good breeder). So while those people could probably find the perfect dog in rescue somewhere, its going to be harder to find it and harder to be sure that you've found it than if you go get a dog whose parents and grandparents and great grandparents all had those traits you're looking for. So it's a gamble, and I understand if people don't want to make that gamble when they have something specific they are looking for. Should people have to risk getting multiple dogs that don't really fulfill them? No. They could go to a good breeder and get exactly what they are looking for the first time and would be thrilled with their ideal dog. But in the back of my head I still seem to feel it's selfish, not saving a life because it might not be perfect for you, even though I KNOW there is nothing wrong with wanting your ideal dog, and KNOW getting a dog isn't supposed to be a charity service, and KNOW the dog and human will be happier if they mesh perfectly. I just can't help feeling that "but you could save a life!" mentality, even if I don't let it come out because I know there is nothing wrong with good breeders and am truly thrilled when someone chooses a good breeder over a BYB.


And then I remember that if these people would just focus their anger on stupid breeders and oops litters there would be no more shelter dogs that need saving. There are people out there CAUSING the problem that need to be taken care of, so why target those that are not putting dogs in shelters. And I remember that if good breeders stop too then all that would be left after shelter dogs all have homes are dogs with unknown family histories (in regards to health and temperament), so not dogs that should be bred. Thus good breeding could never be brought back.

So I know that good breeders are doing important work, and they must keep doing it. I also think dog breeds with specific temperaments should be preserved because I do think it's important to have an idea of what sort of temperament the breed or type (terrier mix, herding breed mix, hound mix, etc.) of dog you are getting generally has so you can make an educated decision on whether they would fit in your family based on that. If no one was preserving different temperaments then buying any dog from anywhere would be a gamble.

But I still struggle not to be disappointed when people go to breeders, even good breeders, "just because" (are not looking for anything terribly specific, could probably find what they want easily in a rescue). I am happy to help them find good breeders because I want them to go the good breeder route, not the BYB breeder route, but I still wish they would get a rescue if they are just looking for a good pet. I know it shouldn't disappoint me, but I can't help it, a homeless dog could have been given a better life.

That said I've entertained the idea of going the breeder route myself. But that voice in the back of my head will likely keep me from doing so. My reservations about going to breeders will only ever affect ME.

I don't dislike good breeders, would never discourage people from going to one, will always try to be objective when making recommendations about where someone should consider getting a dog, and will continue to be thrilled every time someone IRL tells me they went to a breeder who health tests or who does agility or shows their dogs or something. Because if everyone stopped going to BYBs and mills and those people stopped breeding that would make the biggest difference.


I have nothing wrong with pro spay and neuter campaigns though, oops litters might even account for more unwanted dogs than BYBs and mills. Average Joe can't keep their dogs contained properly it seems.

I also wish there was more emphasis placed on finding good breeders because I think most people who go to BYBs and mills would not if they knew how to find "the best". The anti-puppy mill movement has gained a lot of support, the main reason is because of the abuse involved in mills. I do not think you can demonize BYBs. They generally love their dogs, take good care of them, etc. So I think it'd be easier just to get people passionate about what makes a good breeder. It's hard for average dog owners to become passionate about proper conformation or preserving working drive. But I think most people could get behind breeding dogs with stable temperaments and good genetic health because dogs that grow up to be terrified of life or maul children are sad, and dogs who go blind or have to be euthanized because they are crippled by hip dysplasia are sad, and people become passionate about things that make them sad (and angry). I think if there was a campaign that highlighted just those things about good breeders people would get behind it and spread the word.

In talking to people (family and friends) who ask how I choose what breeders to add to my breeder directory, those two points, that they ensure good, stable temperaments and test for genetic disease, seem to make the most sense to them. I have stopped saying "I make sure they title their dogs" because most people don't care if their dog's parents are champions or is awesome at agility. Now I say "I make sure they do something to prove their dogs have really good, proper temperaments" and people seem to get that a lot better, so then I can say how titling or working can prove that. And of course everyone wants to get healthy pets, so no one is confused when I say I look for disease screening. I just don't think people know what sort of screening is available, they think a breeder saying that they take their dogs to the vet yearly ensures that they are disease free. People can learn that that is not the case. I think there could be a pro good breeder movement, it just needs to be simplified.
 

Red.Apricot

Active Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
2,984
Likes
2
Points
38
Location
Southern California
#98
You wouldn't want them anyway because they're not the perfect dog you're looking for.
I only have room in my house and schedule for one dog. I don't think it's morally wrong to choose a dog which is going to make me and the dog happiest, rather than the least adoptable dog from my local shelter. My dog has a 'forever home' with me, she is loved, and she makes me extremely happy.

It's not about being the perfect dog, it's about fitting my lifestyle and my needs.

Of course, when I was looking for a dog, I was a 20 year old college student who lived at home, so none of the local rescues would touch me with a 10 foot pole, and the dogs in the city/county shelters here weren't what I was looking for--and I looked.
 
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
7,099
Likes
1
Points
38
Location
Illinois
#99
So why don't you just say you really don't care if the dogs in shelters don't get homes then? You wouldn't want them anyway because they're not the perfect dog you're looking for... I just think it's a bit hypocrite to pretend to love dogs yet be ok with that, that's all.
Why don't I have 20 dogs too? I mean, why stop at a couple when I could keep rescuing and giving 17 more a great home with me.

Why target the highly adoptable dogs and instead go for the dogs that have little chance of getting adopted?

Why get a dog transported in from another state or country when you have dogs that don't fit what you want but don't have homes in state.

Why spend your money on a new TV rather than donating it to pets in need.

Why would you bring another child in this world when there are so many that need homes. In fact why would you not adopt a high risk shelter dog instead of spending money on a child.

You are way oversimplifying things.
 

Emily

Rollin' with my bitches
Joined
Feb 13, 2008
Messages
2,115
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Illinois
So why don't you just say you really don't care if the dogs in shelters don't get homes then? You wouldn't want them anyway because they're not the perfect dog you're looking for... I just think it's a bit hypocrite to pretend to love dogs yet be ok with that, that's all.
Un****ingbelievable.

This is where I take a deep breath, and remember that not everyone is worth my time.

I have to go prepare to have a dog (that I picked up off the street, had vetted, microchiped, and rehomed) returned to me. I have better things to do with than argue on the internet about whether or not I love dogs because I purchased a puppy. As in, I have to spend my energy actually HELPING dogs.

Just because I don't love them, ya know? I just pretend. :) I empty my bank account on dogs that need help and fill my apartment with crates because I just pretend to love them.

Man, pretending is hard work. LOL. Since it's all pretend, can't I use monopoly money? :lol-sign:

ETA: *gets off soapbox* Sorry, I try not to get up there in the first place but sometimes it happens.
 

Members online

No members online now.
Top