No Bulldog or Pekenese will Compete at Crufts

I know you are generalising and not tarring us all with the same brush but I would like to point out that my mutt is very sickly and my two CH show dogs are healthy as horses. Its all in the breeding.

See, I would LOVE to see that so much. I mean, I can't even start to imagine the kind of blow up that would follow in the wake of a change like that seeing as just checking the health of a few selected breeds was like armagedon but I would love to see it.


I think that would do so much in the way of helping breeds. You can't compete without extremes happening. You see it in sports but at least function is needed to the health tends to suffer less than the mental but it's still extremes. But in conformation it happens and I can't see moderation ever truly working when you have to choose a dog that fits "best"

I get your point but like puppydog said, don't paint everything with one brush. I have a dog from a breeder and more than likely will continue buying from breeders my whole life. I like knowing the history (health and behavioral) behind my dog and just because there are some bad eggs out there doesn't mean all purebred dogs from breeders are unhealthy. I wouldn't even go to say the majority are.

I just wanted to point this out because it made me smile. PDE blog posted a few pictures of the 1st place neo Jr bitch. What a lovely dog.

NICE looking Neo. I love seeing that.

I've kept quiet the whole thread because others have already expressed my thoughts. This might not be ideal but it's a **** good start and it's about ****ing time.

I think all the "How is a vet qualified to judge best of breed??? BLAH BLAH BLAH!!!" screaming is hilarious. The vet isn't qualified to judge anything except whether or not your dog is semi-functional as a canine, and no one was pretending otherwise.

I love the idea of conformation certifications instead of finishing a dog to its CH or whatever. Instead of rewarding extremes, just prove that the dog falls within whatever standard you have laid out enough to make a good example of its breed.

Of course, I love even more the idea of just working your dog and letting form follow function...

Love that Neo!


For the record, to add, most of the health problems I've dealt with in dogs have been from my mixes. My purebreds, which have all come from reputable breeders, were always healthy overall with minimal problems (just dog-related things, like a play injury or a cold).
I, personally, do not buy heavily into the hybrid vigor theory with dogs.

See attached video. Complete with the theme to Top Gun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjQh6ka6C-4

And

Show pigeons

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAC5se2EO24

Well I'm really glad I have a purebred dog with known parentage regarding health and temperament, personally. I also have a mutt, and she's fantastic, but she was a crapshoot, where as with my purebred, I had a good idea of what I was getting.

And neither of my dogs, papered or mixed, are sickly. *shrug* Keeva is pretty monstrous though.

I would really love to see something like this. If dogs could say "pass" under 3 judges they could be awarded a conformation certificate. Then owners who are more interested in conformation could still pursue a CH. I think it would be a nice way of rewarding dogs who are good representatives of their breed without their owners having to spend a fortune trying to win over other dogs with them. I would bet this would increase the conformation entries, not decrease them. I would also hope it would get more variation in "type" in some breeds into the ring. I've known people who have thought of showing their German line GSDs for example but realize it's a waste of time and money. If there were an option of getting a conformation certificate in 3 shows (kinda like 3 conformation "legs"), such owners probably would have done it. I know quite a few performance people who would've tried it too but as it is, never show in breed due to the time, expense and/or their dogs not being the right type. And there certainly would be people who tried it and decided to go on with showing, so it would work out in AKC's favor that way as well.

I've never been fond of having just one level of recognition for conformation judging - that to be good examples of the breed, the dog must beat other good examples of the breed. That's fine for competition but not necessary to recognize quality. I do like that about the way GSDs are judged in the SV - all dogs are given ratings then they are judged against each other. People not interested in pursuing high levels of comeptition with the breed ring, can just take their ratings and move on. Others can see how far they can go competing against other dogs for big wins.

Yeah, this will probably end up being me. LOL.

But seriously, there's no reason a system like this can't be applied. It wouldn't even be complicated to get up off the ground.

Dont' you think that would still lead to extremes?

I don't think it would. There are enough breeders who aren't into the whole confo scene due to having to breed a less moderate dog.

Sure you would still have some who need to breed more extreme dogs to have something over the others.. but those who still feel the need to show confo can get the cert and move on. I agree, many dogs are good examples of the breed but aren't flashy enough to win.

It would stop the continuous narrowing of the gene pool, or at least slow it down.

Not if there's a limitless amount of dogs that achieve certification.

In an OB trial, only one dog can win that trial but any number can qualify and any number can title. I'm thinking a confo certification would work the same way.

There would still be people interested in pursuing CH's and breeding dogs to extremes, and confo certification certainly wouldn't prove anything beyond your dog's appearance, but I do think it would be a happy medium for those who enjoy conformation but don't want to push extremes.

It's a better way of doing it for sure. But as long as you are putting dogs up against one another and then ranking them, I think you are going to get extremes. Sure people who just want to get the certificate can do that and move on, but the people who you see at Crufts obviously enjoy showing for the sake of showing would be doing the same under this new system.

The German GSD was brought up, well they still have a distinct show line with weird confo.

No denying it's better, but it seems to me that we would still be seeing, e.g. Neos with their faces melting off...

but you wouldn't get so may breeding extremes. Sure some people would, but it would encourage those who don't want to, to have a way to prove they have good dogs and not 'play the game'.

Yup, that's exactly what I meant

I do too but unfortunately it's just not realistic. Even for the breeds whose jobs still truly exist (for instance, most gundogs) it's the rare dog who is worked to the extent that they would break down within their breedable years (particular females) if they weren't physically sound in a form that was ideal for the job. I am glad that in at least some breeds emphasis on proving instinct/working ability is still in place as a baseline expectation...and wish it were emphasized in more breeds...not sure it would be realistic to hope for more than that at this point.

I certainly was not meaning to paint all breeders with the same brush. There are many breeders out there that prioritize sound health over extreme appearance and award winnings.
I just despise the people that prefer the dogs extreme characteristics and attempt to breed them even more extreme just for the prestige. It's sad for the animal.

Not just for the animal. Someone ran the numbers based on birth and death dates on the Clumber breeders' website and found out that those dogs live, on average, 5.5 years. That's not only sad for the dog, but for the pet owners that adopt those that aren't show quality.

I considered getting a Clumber early on. I am very glad I didn't.

That really is the way forward. Beautiful dog.

My family had considered a Clumber as well before we got our Pug. The Pug, while I don't have him anymore, lives with a nice old lady who was alone, and he is now about 12 or 13 I believe. Still a healthy little truck of a dog. I opted out of Dobermans for myself and my boyfriend for the lifespan reason as well. I just couldn't handle it, and seeing other Chazzers talk about thinking of their still-young dogs possibly leaving soon just broke my heart too much.

It's a shame, Clumbers seem like the perfect Spaniel for me. And they are definitely the cutest (sorry other spaniel owners!).

And considering the dwindling entries...why not?


Everything could potentially leads to extremes when it comes to competitions. I think it was Linds who pointed out that breeding for sports can also produce extremes, just in different ways.

But there are also very moderate GSDs still able to be shown and get ratings. We don't have that here with them or some other breeds. I can't tell you how many people I have talked to at shows who will only buy from a breeder who has dogs they show in AKC conformation. It may not be a popular opinion here but there's a lot of people who feel breeders who don't show are not reputable. I've talked to many show people who think it's a shame GSDs are "ruined" because they really love the breed. When I tell them they really aren't, there's other lines, etc they say things like "well that's useless if I want to show in conformation" or "I won't buy from BYBs" or some such thing. Having the option for a conformation certificate would allow a greater range of type to compete. That would be good for everyone involved I think.