Smooth and Rough Collies?

Sooooo, I am making another breed thread-lol.

I have been thinking a lot about collies, and I know there are some members who own or who have been involved with collies. What is your general opinions on collies? Aside from coat, are there other differences between the 2 types? I have heard they are soft, but how soft are they? Do they tend to have high prey drive? How well do they get along with other dogs?

Yay collies!

I've heard that rough collies are a little bit softer and more handler-oriented than smooths, smooths being slightly more mischivous and independent. But the differences are very slight, and I'm sure are only really evident when you can compare smooths and roughs from the same lines. In other words, roughs from one breeder may end up being more independent than smooths from another breeder.

I think that also depends a lot on the breeder and individual dog. When I was looking for a collie, I was looking for one that I could do a lot of different activities with; it was very important that the dog would be able to herd and do obedience, but I'd like to do agility etc. too. Typically, a dog that can do all these things will not be a soft dog. There are lots of breeders, though, that only breed "pet" dogs that probably would be pretty soft.

I'd say that with Lassie and everything, there are many more "soft" dog breeders than others. But versitility breeders can be found.

I've only know a few collie mixes...but they've all been very much like Lizzy describes. And I want one! From what I've seen/heard, they're softer than many working/herding breeds, but not as soft as sighthounds.

I've also heard they're quite talkative.

I play agility with a woman who has 2 roughs and they're a hoot! She does agility, obedience and scenthurdle with them (scent is just with her older boy) and they do super well! They learn very quickly but they also pick up on their owner's emotions well too.

The main downside to them is the 4 hours per dog it takes her to groom them lol.

I've heard this too, and from dogsitting 2 roughs for the last 6 months, Logan is definitely more independent. But they're ALL mischievous lol.

Logan is somewhat of a soft dog, but at the same time, I think Gavroche is softer. Logan can have an "oh whatever" attitude on occasion. It's really funny to see the difference between when he's off-duty and on-duty. On-duty he knows he has to work, and he takes corrections much more seriously. Off-duty, he tends to give me the finger on occasion :rofl1:

When Logan was younger he was pretty high energy. He NEEDED walks every day, plus time to play outside in the yard. Now, as he's matured, he can really get going when we're doing something, but he's generally just as content to chill on the couch. If he doesn't get a walk, he's okay with that.

Logan has some prey drive, but it's VERY balanced and controlled. We still have yet to try lure coursing, but I think he'd LOVE it and do well. At the same time, he can stand and stare at the chickens for HOURS if I'd let him. He just stands there, waiting for them to come up to him, and then wags his tail a million miles an hour. No chasing at all (Gavroche will charge the coop fence, and has gotten in with the chickens before and chased them around...he has the prey drive from hell lol). Logan ADORES cats and wishes we had a sane one to play with.

Logan is actually very much like a GSD without the edge (and hair) that GSDs have. He LOVES absolutely everyone and every dog. His breeder told me before I got him that he tries to dominate other dogs, and I did see him posturing and trying to start **** with the other dogs when I was there, but since he's been home he hasn't done it at all - but there were also two unrelated older intact males, plus Gavroche who doesn't take **** from anyone.

I have heard that the smooths and roughs have a different herding style, too.

If you get a collie you need to make sure it's from a good breeder, of course. Eyes can quickly be bred into tiny little holes that are way too small to be healthy, and noses soo long that the teeth are set improperly. BYB collies are some very hideous animals in a lot of cases, not ot mention health problems.

Our Maeve was a rough collie...

...she was very soft. She was also one of the most polite and easy going dogs I have ever known.

She was an easy puppy. A sweet and happy dog.

Collies are definitely very clued in to their person. Maeve would watch me like a hawk and know how I was feeling better than I did most times.

She did have a fear of thunder...she would turn into a panting mess during storms.

Logan is scared of absolutely nothing, but I attribute that to a combination of good genes, early neurological stimulation, and outstanding socialization from his breeder. The roughs I was watching were pretty spooky around noises, though.

Talkative? Yes. It takes daily training to curb the barking, and I've still got a long way to go before Keegan is tolerable. He's mostly stopped demand barking, yay, but still barks quite a bit at people in my yard (and neighbors) and at dogs he sees in public.

I still think collies are not nearly as barky as shelties, LOL. Personally, I'm EXTREMELY sensitive to barking, I HATE it.... so if I can have a collie and not go insane with the barking, I think it's not too bad. It just takes a LOT of work.

Yes, I do think they're softer than a lot of herding dogs: BCs, ACD, GSDs, Belgians, for example. But they're slightly more serious than, say, Aussies.

I did forget to mention.... Keegan was definately a pretty easy puppy. He has always had a lot of energy, so keeping him exercised enough has been hard at times. He needs at least 2, 30-minute exercise sessions per day, plus about a 15-minute training session, to maintain sanity. More is preferable, and he gets MUCH more on weekends. But besides that, his puppyhood has been relatively smooth.

Collies are known for being easy to potty train.

Collies do tend to be sound sensitive, that's definately something to watch out for, especially if you're getting an adult dog. At 8-weeks old we could already see that Keegan was showing a little bit of sensitivity, so I socialized him heavily to strange/loud sounds. It improved very quickly, and he's always been fine in thunderstorms.

When I was looking for a collie in rescue, I saw that a LOT of them were not good with children. Now, some rescues just don't adopt dogs to homes with children, so this could be the issue (I never looked deeply into it), but if you're thinking about rescuing, again, this would be something to think about.

I had a Rough Collie and he was not at all soft. I suspect there is probably more of a difference between lines and individual dogs than coat type (much like the Belgians). He also had no sound sensitivity issues and most I knew did not. That said, he died over 10 years ago, so things may have changed. He was also pet bred and didn't have a lot of the current show dogs of the time in his pedigree.

Collies are a breed that I often suggest for families because you get some of the benefits of a herding dog (biddability, playfulness, strong bond to people) without a lot of the downsides (they don't tend to be sharp, reactive, guardy, suspicious or shy). IME they are usually very good kid dogs. Most are excellent with other dogs too. They should have a decent prey drive and be willing to go when you are and willing to chill out in the house. I think a lot of them these days have more "chill" and less "go" though. I looked for another Collie on and off for years. There are a good number of breeders in my region and some have really, really nice show dogs. When I went to these breeder's houses, all of their dogs were typical Collies in that they barked when I pulled in then greeted me like family when I went into the house. I can't say any of the dogs had bad temperaments - I didn't see shy, weird or aggressive dogs at all. But I ended up not getting a puppy after looking and looking and looking because it was very hard to find any with decent drive. Even 3-4 month old puppies I looked at were pretty laid back. I wouldn't have hesitated to suggest any of these puppies or breeders for someone looking for a good pet but they just weren't what I was looking for. There is a big name show kennel not real far from me that I did not visit because hearing them call Collies "stupid" for years was a bit of a turn off.

The Collies I have known (quite a lot of them actually) have been show or pet bred, which is pretty much the choice in Collies. They were all pretty trainable, varying amount of drive, many lived with or were regularly around kids and were overall, nice sound, friendly dogs. That is pretty much what I expect of Collies. If that is no longer the case, that makes me a bit sad. To me, what makes Collies a standout breed is their temperament and what awesome family dogs they are.

So there are collie breeders that focus in herding and dog sports?

Logan's breeder is pretty big on herding. Logan had his HIC before I got him and I'd LVOE to get into herding with him sometime. His daddy has PT now, his dam has HIC, and several siblings/half siblings have HIC. Logan's sister that the breeder kept is also getting into agility. Logan was supposed to be a wilderness SAR dog before I got him. That said, she also does conformation with her dogs, and Logan's sire is now a Grand Champion.

One of my goals is to get a versatility award on Logan and I think last I heard the breeder had the same goal for Logan's sire. To me, versatility is what I want in a dog.

I think it's interesting to note that collies were bred to be herders by day, and in-home watchdogs at night. So they should be able to go out and work, and then come back and chill in the home with their family.

Yep, me too, and that was a huge selling point when I was looking for a breeder. Collies won't beat border collies in herding, they won't beat bloodhounds in tracking, they won't beat labs as service dogs. But they CAN do ALL these things - at the same time! - and be pretty darn good at them anyway. That's the versitility I was looking for in a dog.

This is so interesting; all of your descriptions of rough collie temperment totally describes Sienna. Even more than the Sheltie temperment (she's not very barky). Making me rethink my breed mix guesses...what could be mixed with collie that would give you an 18 inch tall solid red sable doggy? LOL.

Are shelties very similar? What would you say are the differences between collie and sheltie temperments? (Sorry if I'm hijacking the thread...it seems kind of on topic!)

NO, IME, they're not very similar at all.

I dunno, I have a hard time describing temperaments, especially with dogs I haven't personally owned. But shelties seem more.... flighty? They don't have the focus that collies have, and are much less serious, I think. Not that collies are terribly serious, but they can get down to business if they need to. Shelties, to me, almost belong more with the toy dogs than with the herding dogs (it's terribly difficult to find a breeder that breeds shelties for herding anyway).

Plus, yeah, shelties tend to bark more.

There are no "working lines" in Collies the way there are in say BCs or Aussies. They have been selectively bred for many, many, many generations as primarily show and companion dogs. I know there used to be obedience breeders of them, when obedience was a popular sport. I don't personally know of breeders that I would consider performance breeders of them, although there are a few breeders who do stuff with their Collies outside of the breed ring.

If I were looking to get a Collie now, I'd be seriously considering trying to import one from this breeder. High drive Collies who can do just about anything: http://www.smooth-collie.info/english/aboutus.htm

Shadaglen's dogs work sheep for a living and have for decades. One of Moxie's foundation dogs came from them, and that's where her original SAR dog came from before she got into the breed (that dog was why she got into the breed actually). I'd definitely consider them working collies, as they work sheep day in and day out on a ranch and have for generations. That gal has also done a huge amount of tracking with them over the years (which is why Moxie went with them for a SAR prospect).

That's pretty cool. There's a difference between "working Collies" and "working line Collies" though. As I said, working lines don't exist in Collies the way they do in BCs and Aussies. That doesn't mean that no one does performance or herding with their Collies though

How does breeding and working the same line for over 50 years not make them working line? That's about the same age as czech and DDR lines.

I guess it depends on how you define "working lines". To me it's is a pretty specific thing. It's doesn't refer to just one person's line or breeding program but to a background and pedigree of dogs selectively bred for the purpose of work. It's a segment of the breed's population being bred for the purpose of work. Plenty of people with show line BCs herd with them but that doesn't make them working line BCs, even if they have relatives who herd as well.

I did use to hear Collie people refer to Farm type Collies, which were AKC Collies that were much like the Corgi "thowbacks" (leggier, short backed Corgis from show lines). The person who initially peeked my interest in the breed had show bred Collies but her first Collie was a Farm type Collie from a pet breeder. I never knew the dog but from the pictures, I'd say he would be similar type to this dog.

To be honest, I have absolutely never met a collie that is as drivey as the drivier shelties are that I know. Collies seem so much more mellow than any other herding breed. To me shelties are more akin in temperament to Aussies and other herders than collies are. I know a LOT more sport dogs that are shelties than either rough or smooth collies. There have been a couple in my classes but they would not hold a candle to even the average shelties in terms of drive and speed. They were also all pretty weird/flighty (not to say some shelties were not flighty and strange).

I think you'd have about the same luck finding a working sheltie breeder as a working collie breeder. Both are primarily show and sport dogs now, not 'real' working dogs. I would say it would be easier to find a performance sheltie than a performance collie but it's probably due to the people I know and many of them competing with shelties.