Prong Collars

No, I didn't mean I was going to work with a trainer to use the prong collar. I meant I just wasn't going to use a prong collar, but I certainly wouldn't ever attempt to use one for the first time without the help of our trainer.

If she doesn't go to her new home, I might call the trainer. I honestly think in this environment there's only so much we can do. Maybe that's a crappy attitude to have, but there's just no way to simply not let her get away with pulling at all. I'm trying to teach her a solid by-my-side command indoors, and it helps, but it doesn't stop the behavior.

Yes, I tried the Premack Principle with her. But I think she likes pulling more than she likes just about anything else, including food. Maybe I need to keep looking for a higher value reward.

You can train her not to pull with a prong and not increase any reactivity. I prefer prongs to just about anything else for teaching a large dog not to pull me down the street.

I weigh 105 pounds. An 80 pound GSD can pull me down and drag me without a problem. I try to not have to use anything other than a flat collar on the dog, but sometimes it's just not feasible, and I can't afford to purchase a halti for every size dog I've worked with. Plus, halti's scare me quite a bit more in terms of potential damage to a dogs neck than a prong collar. And if you do it correctly, you don't end up with a collar smart dog, and I haven't quite figured out how to keep Enzo from being 'collar' smart about her halti.

I hope none of my posts were taken as a "i used a prong and it worked so you should too" because they weren't. It was a simple statement that they can be used and not increase reactivity or even be confused as the other dog causing pain, which is what I read over and over and over by people repeating exactly what they've heard.

a prong collar can be every bit as effective and clear as a well conditioned clicker. It wasn't the first thing I grabbed, it was the last. The only reason I bring it up is because for some, it might be the solution to their problem. It shouldn't be the first place they go, but they also shouldn't have it in their mind that they can never go there either because the read they shouldn't a hundred times on the internet. I've found that most people are simply repeating what they've heard or read from another that has heard rather than speaking from experience.

I've seen very aggressive and reactive dogs trained on prong collars and the results have been nothing short of amazing - but it wasn't about the tool used, the tool was just there to give the owners some leverage so they could have some control. It didn't take long before the owners no longer needed the tool to provide leverage once the dog's behaviour had been modified through using the training program they'd been provided.

I don't see any problem with using a prong collar on an aggro/reactive dog if it's used correctly (on the right dog with the right owner with the right training program).

Tools themselves don't damage dogs, people damage dogs through using tools incorrectly.

Again, that is simply not true. A prong used TOTALLY correctly can still cause some dogs to amp up and be even more reactive. A prong uses a painful correction to teach, it is discomfort. Classical conditioning...if every time a dog sees another dog he gets corrected, yes, the correction becomes associated with the presence of the other dog. This would happen even in humans who could logically know the difference....they would still have the gut reaction of x happens when I see y....therefor y = x.

Some dogs a prong will suppress reactive behaviors, sure. Positive punishment is part of learning theory and does work....but why? And what are the associations we are building up?

I guess my point is, with all the other options out there for dealing with reactivity and aggression that dont often make it worse, or suppress, or cause pain or discomfort, why are we using prongs?

And just how do you know that people who are against the use or discomfort in association with dog reactivity issues are only paroting what they've heard or read on the Internet? It is offensive that you, in many of your posts make assumptions about people posting that you have no knowledge of. It is woefully presumptuous to make statements that people here only read things on the Internet and have no experience. Very insulting. There are those of us here who train dogs for a living and who not only have schooling in animal behavior, but also practical experience and years spent with dogs.

I had a reactive Doberman. I used a prong collar on him because I wasn't strong enough to control him sometimes... and I used it "correctly." It directly made him more reactive and more tense in the presence of other dogs than he was before. I quickly decided against that and utilized much more distance with a counter-conditioning process such as discussed in Click to Calm and other such books and stayed away from the places where too many dogs were or where I couldn't avoid being too close to them, as I was when I chose to try the prong, against my better judgement. He then improved gradually.

Since then, I have discovered the Halti Harness as a good tool to hang onto a lunging dog when those situations are not successfully avoided. I have experience with other dogs because that is what I do. I never recommended a prong collar for this application even though I tried it myself with my 90 lb bag of muscles when I could not escape the presence of other dogs in the location I was. I guess you have to do what you have to do to keep safe with a lunging dog. But as far as training, counter conditioning/desensatizing is superior. It's very important to avoid punishment techniques with aggressive or reactive dogs. Anything that is added to the dog which is uncomfortable can very easily be associated with the environment which is often another dog. Sure, there are dogs that won't be negatively affected by this. My Doberman even, although he was made more reactive than prior to it's use, and less reactive after it's cessation, did not appear to be crushed emotionally. He also appeared to have a high pain threshold. Some dogs are more globally affected. Dogs react differently and it's generally thought of by most behaviorists these days that it is not worth taking the risk since you don't know how your dog will respond to this aversive. PR methods are very effective, although not an immediate fix.

Did those of you who avoided increasing or causing reactivity with a prong take specific steps to avoid that, or was it the luck of the draw with each individual dog? If you did take steps to avoid increased reactivity, can you delineate what they were?

I LOVE the exercises in "Control Unleashed", if you're doing this type of thing with a prong collar, of course the dog will get better, DESPITE the prong collar, things like LAT are that effective

Sorry, if using a prong collar caused a dog to become more reactive then it was not used correctly. Either it was the wrong tool for that dog, or the training method was wrong, or the training program.

I don't understand why there is this assumption that if a prong collar is used, that is the extent of the training method or program. The dogs I've seen trained on prong collars haven't had a different training program to a dog that would have been wearing a flat collar, the prong is simply there to give the owner some leverage (think for example, a 55kg woman with a 65kg dog aggressive bull mastiff - she's barely even able to hold the leash without being pulled over but the prong coupled with the right training program helps give her back some control so training can take place). Behaviour modification is about changing the dog's thinking and just because a dog is wearing a prong collar, that does not mean that the trainer is using suppression to (attempt to) change the dog's behaviour.

To me a prong is no different to any other tool - check chain, martingale, even head collars which I generally can't stand, etc, how well it's used it up to the person using it and the dog they are using it on. The tool is not the training program.

Prongs cause a painful (or at least discomforting) correction to suppress the behavior...that is how they work! If dogs does this, correction is applied. If correction is discomforting enough the behavior is suppressed as the dog works to avoid the correction.

No, they in and of themselves are not a training program, but they do change how the training program works.

You are correct. Only if they are attached to a leash and pressure is put on them will they cause pain or discomfort. So in a training program where a dog is never corrected, or self corrects by lunging, around other dogs dog reactivity will have no chance of being increased by association.

To date I have not seen a prong used in this fashion.

I don't need a lecture from the queen of insulting others in training topics. Please, you've inferred in many or your posts that people who don't think or train exactly as you are barbaric, uneductated, etc. So spare your lecture, I don't need or want it.

and yes, lots of people just repeat what they've read.

I'm not getting why this is a bad thing.
I have some experience with dogs, but I'll never have the kind of experience someone like Dunbar or Miller or McConnell has. So if what you're repeating is what you read from someone with more experience and knowledge than you, who's experiences echo yours with your dogs, why is it bad to share that knowledge?

Yes, sharing knowledge is a "bad thing" , that is exactly what said, verbatim........almost..... or maybe not at all what I said.

I'm like a billion years late, but I use a prong with Bear... he's bigger than me and can pull me wherever. Being as he usually lives with his co-owner in the middle of nowhere, he's seldom on leash. I live in town and can't afford being dragged into traffic. He's never seemed upset with it and usually comes to it when he sees it being pulled out. I don't use it all the time, but it's a nice tool. Everyone hikes happily.

Okay, I get that there's a history to this conversation, but I wasn't part of that history. I was simply asking a question, no need for the snark, and FWIW, that's not what I said either - read the whole post.

I'd rather see someone repeating what they've read from someone with more experience than them, that give their experience with one dog and use it as gospel for what to do with every other dog. The latter is far more prevalent IMO on forums and IRL, and honestly, kind of dangerous. Especially when you get in to the realm of corrections. Just look at how many dog bites happen when owners go to correct the dog...

I'm also going to have to get on my soap box about the "the dog is bigger/stronger than me" argument. As if the size of the dog is reason enough to use pain to train, or "just in case." I'm sorry its not. My eight year olds weigh less than half of what the danes do, and walk them in flat collars without issues.
Its one thing to use the prong to train then hang it up, but that the prong has to stay on the dog forever because he's "bigger than me" is unnecessary and unfair to the dog. JMO.

I would, personally, not ever use a prong on the dogs I currently have. It wouldn't help my reactive Duncan, and both him and Cameron are fast learners with positive reinforcement, negative punishment, and marker training.

Prong and choke collars aren't allowed at the Humane Society where I volunteer, I'm happy to abide by their rules.

I don't think I'll ever use a prong collar. I dislike positive punishment. I used to train using corrections, but my dog Cameron started to avoid training and eye contact with me, she also had less drive to please me. She was slower and more likely to ignore me. It just seemed like the threat of a correction made our training sessions less fun and she seemed less likely to take a risk with the lessons.

ETA: Since there is a high debate around reactivity and prong collars, I will say this. All corrections I have ever attempted with Duncan have increased his reactivity in that given moment. I haven't noticed him being more reactive later, but even after the first correction he would fly into this fight or flight reaction. If, however, I don't correct, he neither goes for the dog nor does he attempt to run away. Instead he will stay by my side, and if I can get him to stop barking it is easier to get his attention back on me.

Duncan skyrockets.
Cameron shuts down with pain.

And how do they work any differently to any other training tool? head collar, anti-pull harness, check chain, martingale etc - they all work because they are aversive and provide a discomforting sensation or correction.

None of the dogs I've seen trained on prong collars were taught not to aggress towards other dogs through suppression. I'm not saying the prong doesn't give a correction, but that in these instances, there was a lot more to the training program than 'give a correction when the dog spots another dog and acts aggressively'.

I don't see anyone saying that, that is certainly not what I meant when I gave the example I did earlier on. What you can do with your dogs is irrelevant though. A trainer has to consider what the skill of the handler they are working with is, and at the end of the day some people require the leverage that a tool like a prong can give them so that they can actually train their dog. This isn't an argument about the size of the dog, but the capabilities of the owner especially when they own a dog that is bigger and stronger than they are, and has already developed serious behaviourial problems.



ETA: I've never used prong collars on my own dogs and I don't plan to, but I'm not going to deny someone's right to use any tool properly if that's what will work best for them.

I don't really like prongs -- but two of my dogs I walk (a Lab and a Rottweiler) have them and I have to use them because that's what the owner requests and has for me. Both happily put them on so it's not like I feel terribly bad but I also think there are other options. Though I admit when the Lab is not walked on the prong, he is HORRIBLE. The Rottie is okay on anything, though he did pull more in a harness. But they would never be my choice to use and had I been the owner and raising them, I would have trained them a proper way right from the start so a prong wouldn't be "necessary". I would certainly never use one for a small dog, anything under 30lbs would be a definite no-no to me.

But that's the thing! If the handler isn't skilled enough to control the dog (to some extent) without the prong, then they most certainly don't have the skill to be using a prong. Sure, no biggie for the dogs out there who go "oh **** that hurt", stop pulling, and go about their merry way. But what about the dogs who say "oh **** that hurt" and redirect on the owner?

IME, the less skill the owner has, the MORE reason to stay away from tools designed to correct.

I disagree. I think there is more time and skill required in teaching (for example) a 55kg woman with little confidence how to handle a 65kg dog aggressive dog than there is in teaching them how to properly use a prong collar. And if the owner is desperate, and about to have the dog PTS because they can't handle it or live with it and they need to see that they can get results with the dog, time is not on your side.

I'm not saying that prong collars are the right choice for ALL dogs and owners, and a good trainer will assess whether or not a xyz tool is appropriate for the dog, the owner and their skill level. But I've seen far too many people get excellent results with the aid of a prong collar (usually only for a short period) and a good training program to write the tool off. It's just a tool like any other. How well and appropriately it's used comes down to the person using it.