Dog Aggression and Drive....

I've had a pit or two that had incredible drive, and was great with other dogs. Why couldn't you selectively breed specimens such as that? I understand the arguments and the standards, but I have to wonder that if you bred a few generations of that type of individual, could you get close. Just like any other tenacious breed, there's always a higher occurence of DA-- but those breeders are more than likely breeding for the dog's ability to work.

I wonder because I see plenty of pits that are absolutely the farthest from gamey or drivey as possible, and still are downright dog aggressive. For these individuals, it seems like a lightswitch that goes on. Obviously training and upbringing plays a huge role, but who knows.

Replace the word "pit bull" with say, "labrador". Sure, there are some labs that are lazy and would rather snooze in the sun than go play in the water or fetch. But they're not the norm and most people would be aghast at the suggestion to breed out the fetch drive. It's part of what makes that breed, that breed.

Well, you pretty much answered your own question there.

So, you're suggesting not breeding for the dog's ability to work??

The difference between labs and pit bulls is that pit bulls breeders here are breeding only for their ''ideal'' of the APBT and not the full package. The APBT was bred for gameness and you can't have the full package of the APBT without breeding for that. Since that is illegal (thank god), people can only breed for what they see is the ideal pit bull, and that can differ for each person. There were APBTs who were game but could hang out with dogs who don't challenge them. Some people see that as the ideal APBT, and work their APBTs but wont bred a dog with serious dog aggression. Some see APBTs with a lot of fire as perfectly ideal. Either way, neither is really right since the only way to breed for the true APBT is illegal.

Gameness doesn't automatically = fighting.

There are plenty of ways to breed the TRUE apbt without fighting them

Depends on who you talk to. For many old timers, the only way to bred for gameness is to fight them.

Not exactly.

Anyways, I don't think that dog aggression can be completely bred out without breeding another breed in. Bulldogs and terriers both tend to be DA, so it is only logical that the APBT would have it.

Ummmm honestly I would go back and read a bit more and get a bit more educated

Eh, never claim to be in expert, but from what I am reading, that is the impression I get. Gameness, in general, I see it as never giving up no matter what. When it comes to the APBT, gameness can be only tested in a fight. Some people, like Colby, for instance, believe it can be tested in a wide range of activities like weight pull or hog hunting. That is gameness in a general sense. While others feel it can be tested in only in fights. Not that I agree with fighting, but I definitely see why some people say that it is the only way to test it when to comes to APBTs.

Though it is getting pretty off topic. Happy to continue in pms if you like.

I'm trying really hard to figure out the logically part here...

DA isn't in pits because bulldogs and terriers are DA.

Bulldogs, terriers, pits and cattle dogs have a level of gameness that causes a greater propensity for DA.

Breeding another dog in would, well, not be breeding pits. It might be breeding pitX, but not pits.

To breed out DA from pits would be like trying to breed sighthounds that can run in an unfenced yard. Doable? Only if you breed out what it is that makes them a sighthound. I did however own a lovely afghanXlab, and the lab side of her made her more trustworthy off leash, but she was NOT an afghan.

Who said dog aggression isn't in pit bulls? Dog Aggression is in pit bulls, but dog aggression does not equal gameness. APBTs were bred for gameness, dog aggression just comes along with the breed.

I don't believe anyone can breed out dog aggression completely out of the APBT since they are a mixture of bulldog and terrier, both types very likely to be dog aggressive. The only way I see anyone breeding it out is if you add another breed in and give it the same name. Hope that clarifies what I mean. Didn't mean to confuse.

DA and Gameness tend to go hand in hand so how would they be the same dogs regardless of the bulldog or terrier? You want a correct APBT you have gameness you have gameness you have DA.

No one said DA isn't in pits. I didn't say that. But...I can see you maybe misread my post...I said it's not there because of them being a bully/terrier mix. It's there because of the gameness of the breed.

And yes, DA does not = gameness. But gameness can lead to DA.

Nope, this still isn't working for me. Pits aren't DA because of being a mix of DA breeds. DA is fallout from the gameness.

Gameness does not equal dog aggression because you can have the most dog aggressive dog turn out to be a cur. There were dogs in old days who put in the pit, turn out to be a very game dog, but out of the pit can hang around other dogs.

Most times game dogs are dog aggressive, but that doesn't mean that a dog has to be dog aggressive to be game. Simple fact.

Uh...

Clear as mud.

I give up.

Where in all of that did i say a DA dog is Gamey? I said a GAMEY dog is USUALLY DA.

No offense Darkchild, but your post wasn't really clear.

Romy, I don't know.

When I think of hounds working in a pack, I tend to think beagles and foxhounds...neither of which actually kills, AFAIK.

I think some of it depends also on the size of the dog and the type of game. There's a reason you see more aggression in cattle dogs than sheepdogs.

I'd love to see an answer to this from someone with more hound experience.