Dutch Shepherds

Hello Everyone,

I wanted to know everyone's opinion. I was looking into getting a DS and the people that I have spoken with have given me LOTS of negative feedback. The people in my family are me, my mother, my two sons ages 23 and 16 yrs of age and also my foster brother who is 5 yrs of age. Do you think that a DS that has an outlet can do good in a family home.

unless you're going to train & compete in PP sport like KNPV or ring, it is unlikely that you'll provide enough stimulation to keep him from doing boredom related destruction.
i would never reccommend a DS to anyone that wasn't involved in PP sport and even then i'd only reccommend to people that have worked at least a few other dogs preferably mals.
the breed is still a pure working breed and not well suited to being a pet that goes for a walk every day & an occasional run. they just need more than that. since you haven't stated what you intend to provide as an outlet, i can only infer that you did open up to the working people involved w/ dutchies and they found it to be wanting so now you're fishing for someone to tell you it's okay to get a high intensity, high drive, high energy & highly intelligent dog and not give them an adequate outlet.
i've got scars on my right arm from my inlaws getting more dog than they were prepared to handle and unwilling to provide adequate stimulation & outlets for his needs.

Why does your next dog have to be a DS? There are plenty of breeds that are more suitable to the average family setting.

What is it that attracts you to the DS?

Looks?

Drive?

Temperament?

I wouldn't get a DS to simply be a "Family pet" any more that I would get a malinois or Czech border patrol line german shepherd to be a primarily a family pet. They are working dogs with working dog drives.

I know a couple DS that live in family home situations. BUT (this is a big but) The dogs were not gotten with the idea they would be family pets primarily. They were gotten to be used as sport dogs in PP sports, tracking, etc. They are great for it. The people who own them don't have kids. The dogs are inside sometimes but honestly most of their time at home is in a kennel and they are never allowed around company or children of any sort because their owners do not want to set them up for a fail situation where someone could get hurt.

@ Pops2

Actually I have spoken with several breeders and have visited 2 kennels so far. 4 out of 10 have told me that they breed strictly for police and sport and have directed me to kennels that they do business with that breeds softer dogs.

There are two breeders that I have visited. 1 in Oklahoma and 1 here in Texas that both said that their dogs can be excellent family pets. Both breeders told me that they will put it in writing that if the pup that I purchase from them is too "Hot" that they will swap out the pup just to make sure that I am happy with my new addition.

I have registered with a few Message Forums just trying to get some feedback and get to meet a few folks with the breed and all I have gotten is negativity. Nothing but.

I have been in contacted with the DFW Working Grp and was invited to come and check out the trainers and to see what training style I like best before joining if I am wanting too.

I didnt come here for anyones permission to purchase a dog, just wanting other views on the dog. Maybe someone that actually owns them and lives with them could give me some insight on the dogs and their lines.

So yes I have done some home work and yes I have spoken to people about the dog as far as training is concerned and yes I have visited kennels to see and put my hands on the dog.

I love their look. Clean and sleek. Strong and smart and will protect me to the end. Yes they do need to work, and work they will. Dont get offended by what I have said, but you asked the questions after you had judged me.

I have spoken with a few GSD breeders (and maybe the wrong ones) and it was a complete turn off. I am not a stupid woman, and yes I have questions for the breeders just like they have questions for me. They want to know about me and my family, I want to know about them and their program. I had one breeder tell me "Didnt you look at my page and read about us." I told her yes I had, but I am asking YOU about YOU and your program. She got offended and hung up. I had another person tell me when I asked about pricing that maybe I couldnt afford one if I needed to ask questions. Well why the heck not if I am going to spend good money on a dog, then yes I need to know what I am going to spend.

I am not saying all are alike, it just turned me off to the GSD folks.

Yes a GSD would be wonderful for my family, but a well bred DS could be as well. Mals are a bit tooooo much for me and I know my limitation.

There are a couple that I see regularly at agility trials, and they are a TON of dog. I'd put them right up their with the mals; maybe not quite as quick, but definitely every bit as intense, and possibly stronger physically. I wouldn't expect to get one and have it be less dog than a malinois.

I guess the way I see it is that if you are going to go to one of the breeders who breed softer, family friendly Dutch - you aren't really getting a Dutch, and won't automatically get all the traits you admire about them. Does that make sense in writing? It does in my head, but sometimes things get a bit distorted in the translation!

I'd be concerned with the fact that if you got a puppy in the next year or so, you'd be having a dog come into itself and its protection instincts when the youngest is 7/8/9 years old. Even if the dog was raised wonderfully with the family, what is going to be the outcome when your foster brother's friends come running in the door without warning, or they start wrestling loudly in the house, or are running and playing rough outside as boys tend to do? Obviously, there are people who make it work with dogs that have such strong protection instincts, but it's something very important to consider. The odds of our dogs having to come to our aid in a truly dangerous situation are pretty low; the odds of the dogs misreading a situation and acting on their instincts when it isn't warrented is much higher.

What other dogs have you owned and trained before? What sort of training have you done with them?

@ BostonBanker

I had Rotts for 11 years and really thought about getting another one. It just seems that dogs these days have too much rank drive and I dont want to deal with it. The dogs that I had were obedient trained and we dabbled in search and rescue. My female was better at it then my male. The reason I say that is because when my male was 11 months old, he had to save me from a psycho. This is my story.......

I use to take him (Ty) walking in the morning and my female at night. Giving each dog their own quality time. We always took the same route most of the time. It was about 6:00am in the fall. We would walk about 5 blocks from my home and then take the main road to the elementary school to work and play. At the end of the road to the main road, there was an apartment complex that had a chain link fence along the side with sunflowers that were over grown, that faced the main road. Near the buildings were some low lying bushes or trees. Not sure what they were. He was off lead and was taking care of his business. I had my back to the road when all of a sudden something grabbed me and was choking me with my leash and dragging me backwards. I was just praying that my boy would finish and come for me. He walked to the corner and looked in the direction of the school and sat. He would never cross the street with out me saying it was ok. At this point I was struggling with the man trying to make some sort of noise so my dog would look that way. Well I did and he turned in my direction. This whole incident took about maybe 30 sec to a minute. When he saw me in trouble it was like I saw the devil in his eyes. He charged and hit me in the shoulder knocking me and the man to the ground. While I was trying to gather my whits, he was all over this man. My dog had never had any PP work, just a wonderful bond between me and him. Once I did get up, I clipped the leash on his and got him off the guy. We went home and called the cops. To shorten this already long post, when the cops found the vehicle in the location that I had given them, they found a van and in the van was a shovel, rope, duck tape and some sort of knife. As for the man, they never found him. The police told me that it was a crime of opportunity because of where I was standing. I was also told that if he had been watching me, then he would have known that I had a dog. After that incident, he was very leery of men. My family of course was fine. I said all this to say that is why we stopped the search and rescue. In the beginning when we started, we would hide from our dogs and have them to find us. Then we would do the same with someone elses dog. Me hiding stressed him out and after a while, my trainer said that it stressed him out too much and he started to get aggressive with the person handling him when I would hide. We never had any type of dog aggression issues with him when we were all together.

The incident really changed him and it changed him for the good and bad. My female was always heffer if you know what I mean lol. My older son always had friends over. My younger son was not old enough to have friends to come over and play. Well I guess I have typed enough.

If Mals are "tooooooo much" for you, I wouldn't get a Dutchie. Very similar drives/temperaments.

it is a working breed of dog, if you don't want a working breed, and all that it entails, DO NOT GET ONE.

They are great dogs, assuming you give them the type of life they need. They aren't a pet and they aren't bred for pets. They can definitely be your companion, but they require a lot of work.

Sorry to bother

I just wanted to say sorry for taking up your time. I have posted so much and most have not read what i have written. Can someone respond to me that actually have DS. That way they can give me information that they actually know instead of info that they were told. Contact me privately @ [email protected] if you dont mind. Thanks again.

No one here is in a position to give or not give you permission.

You asked for opinions. You got opinions.

And I'm not sure why you're asking what we think, considering this sounds like you've already decided that a DS could be wonderful for your family.

I don't think any Chazzers own a DS.

Amen Corgi.

To the original poster:

I've read all your posts, and you never mentioned if you yourself have spent any time with a DS in person. There are people who responded who have spent time with typical examples of the breed.

My advice is for you to find some PP clubs in your area and find out if any member have DS that you could meet, or you could pick their brains about what life is like with the breed. Find some breeders you admire, and e-mail them. They live with the dogs. If you can find one close enough arrange to visit the breeder and see what the dogs are like in person.

Personally, I am going to echo everyone else's concerns about bringing a dog like a DS into the situation you are describing. I would NOT be comfortable having the dog loose when guests come over, and that definitely includes guest children. I would be very concerned about my own small children too. A dog with the type of drive a mal or a DS has probably won't be the best at controlling itself when a 5-7 year old kid is running around screaming.

The other thing I'd be worried about with such a range of ages in children is the dog getting itself involved in sibling squabbles. I came from a big family, and we tormented each other as kids. I still remember my uncles afghan hound taking it upon himself to pin an older child to the ground and growl in its face (she was a cousin) when the dog felt the kids were getting "too serious".

If your older boys are teasing the younger a little too "intensely" for the dog, will the dog be content just to pin them? Or will the outcome be worse? If you need to disclipine your children, will the dog let you? We used to have an elkhound who would try to rip my dad's face off if he spanked us. Even if you just have verbal confrontations within your family, the dog is going to pick up on that and depending on it's temperament, drive, amount of activity/exercise, react in a variety of ways. Some of which will not be positive for anyone involved.

And I'm still not sure why you're so adamant that you need a DS? I can think of a boatload of other breeds who fit every other trait you like in dogs who would be a lot easier to live with and a lot less liability.

EDIT:

About your experience with GSD breeders. If any breeder gets offended by your questions and is evasive/refuses to answer, they are not worth dealing with anyway. So your gut is right on that one.

if a mal is too much then so is a dutch sheperd, THEY ARE THE SAME BREED. the breeds were split based entirely on color. the brindles in the litter were DS & the fawns mal even as late as the 1990s. in working lines, both have had APBT added to boost drive & increase bite endurance (hang time) w/o losing agility.
you sound like you fell for an individual dog and the breeds look and don't care that it isn't a good fit and you don't care what anyone has to say about it. this is how BSL is born.

i am not set on anything. no deposits have been given. i just feel that (just my opinon) that there is conflicting information here. i have been told that they are a good dog, you just have to be on the ball when it comes to these dogs and yes i am aware. i had rotts when the same thing was said and i never did. i can understand and i can appreciate all the comments that has been given. a DS is not what the majority feels is a good dog for me and my family. point taken. i will post in the future the dog that i decide to get. the Dutchie is out of the question.

Where do you get that info?

I think he's confusing that with a Donavan (sp) pinscher , which are mixes to create the "ultimate" working breed.

"if" they had anything added to Mal's or DS's its so far back it doesn't even matter at this point. I don't think they've "added" anything other than they took their "type" of working dogs and made them a "breed".

i am getting this from people who have literally seen first crosses on the KNPV field within the last couple of months.
actually there were a couple of extensive discussions about this exact issue on the bandog board between people who know firsthand because they travel to work dogs & people that doen't even work dogs. work only breeders do what is necessary to maintain or improve performance & that includes crossing under the table where necessary.

Can you give me some links?

go here & ask about crossbreeding in working dutchies & mals
you'll get two kinds of responses, one from a lady that will not verify her experience or the basis of her opinions and one from several people that will list the #, breeds & sports they've worked dogs in.
ETA
there is a guy by the call sign alfaandomega that just came back from belgium who has seen these crosses on the field.
BANDOG BANTER

hmmm, a bandog board, that makes sense.

but I wasn't aware that the DS or Mal's or GSD's for that matter were lacking in drive or bite stamina