Breed History/Instinct vs Training

I got into a debate about this subject with my boss (whose a trainer) and another trainer.

How much does training *really* override instinct/breed history (eg: what the breed was made to do).

Its not going to be detailed but heres what brought up this query:

It was brought up about a new pitbull owner thinking it's dog was going to become dangerous (I know, stupid, but I'm not going to go into that) I commented that pitbulls are really good *people* dogs but are iffy with dogs and alot can be DR/DA, besides the exceptions. Well, nope, thats all training and socializing. No matter what the breed, it all comes down to training.

I think we touched on this subject before but I can't find the thread. What are you guys' input?

I think some... and in some cases a lot of compensations can be made through effective training. BUT....no way can you take out of a dog propensities, temperament and aptitudes, which have been genetically selected for for many generations. If that were not true, you wouldn't see nearly the homogeny....or uniformity we see in the breeds we have.

Agreed with dober here. I have a borzoi, a dog with thousands of years of running/chasing behind him. No matter how much I train him, that will never "squash" his inborn drive to hunt/chase. Because of his training, he is very controlled with his impulses while working and on lead. He has stood less than 5 feet from wild deer on lead and not chased/reacted to them, had a squirrel run between his front legs with no reaction, had a house rabbit hop all over him as he layed down on the floor, etc.

Off lead and out of uniform he is very different. If he hears me, I can call him off a chase. But this dog can catch swallows in an open field, cleaned all the rats out of my dad's woodshed, catches squirrels and bunnies in my aunt's pasture and would like to tear the heads off every raccoon he sees.

From my experience, you can socialize/train a dog to the point where they are quite controllable even with high drive. But there are some individuals who are what they are, no matter what you do. And those dogs need to be kept out of situations where their drives/instincts will get them in trouble. Using sighthounds again as an example, most will accept a small animal as a family member if raised around them. SOME individuals are fine until adolescence....then when their drive matures instinct just tells them to chase and kill. They are what they are. I know that even with all the training Strider has had, I would never trust him around a bird. Without a doubt he would decimate a flock of chickens given the chance. I would never trust him with a small dog in an area where he has enough room to start running. A small pen or indoors he is great with little dogs, as he will lay down and crawl around with them. He loves them. But if he were to start running, I really think that their movements would just trigger that hunting instinct and he might lose control.

As his owner it is my responsibility to acknowledge that he does have these drives and to know his limits. It is my duty to him to protect him and keep him out of situations where he is likely to fail, for his safety and the safety of other companion animals. The wild animals I feel badly for (mostly the swallows) but I can't control them and keep them out of harms way. And I can't never let my dog outdoors off leash to exercise. At least he eats what he kills, so they aren't wasted.

Training can affect behavior, but not won't necessarily change the dog's mind. Sometimes it can help a fearful dog become less fearful, but not so much in terms of hard wired breed-specific behaviors.

Tyr, my malinois, has a ton of training on him. He can do all sorts of advanced obedience. But his breed has been bred for their protective qualities for many generations. Even when he's doing focused attention heeling, he keeps half an eye on his surroundings and is ready to switch into protective mode if he's asked to or if there's a strong enough threat. So the training doesn't change his core traits, but it does allow me to tell him to sit and stay and not protect.

A well trained pit bull who is prone to DA could be walked past dogs, because the obedience can control his impulses, but he couldn't be left loose with the other dogs because the DA is still there.

I agree with doberluv and Romy, and corgipower as well. Training will either highten instincts, ( or encourage) or control. A herding breed actually is a 'controlled hunt"- with training to remove the final such as grabbing the sheep. However- I have met people that are lax in thinking they have full control in all situations. This was more enlightened in owning sighthounds now- I would never say for 100 percent certaincy that one would not chase or break off from one no matter how much training they have. Of course I am talking about the exception rather than the general rule.
The one time I needed a member of my family protected, it was done by a dog that was never trained for anything but obedience, and unlike others in the house, she did not have a single day of protection work. Instinct kicked in that day when a that man entered by going over my fence with my small child in the yard. She penned him and detained- all without any training in this at all. Instinct clearly took over for her to guard.

Yea, nice thing about herding breeds is that with many of them, if it's not a sheep, cow, goat, or other livestock animal, they don't have as much instinct to chase as a sighthound would. Species discrimination is also hard-wired with the herding instinct. When Ares had the choice between flushing cattle out of the woods or chasing the horses that were right in front of him, he had zero interest in the horses. That wasn't something I had trained.

Being on my fifth rescue dog to come to me with no training....

I've seen the "magic" that training does... How much it can override in a way, all the impulses that they have.

Basically my dogs come to me riding on pure instinct and fear...

Its one of those things tho, I trust them completely except in very very extreme situations (like they are being attacked savagely)
BUT I think if they were living with a differnet handler, that perhaps ran their house differently...their behavior may change back....who knows.

I also don't know about you guys but here in CA pitbulls are the number one dog and i've only met ONE truely DA pit out of hundreds....perhaps the byb version of this breed is "watering down?" a bit? Also its not odd at all here to go to the dog park and the majority of dogs are pits.. i've NEVER seen a pit problem at the DP except that ONE dog i mentioned. Im rambling...

any trainer that wants to break something down so small isn't worth time arguing with.

there are always genetics, there are always past experiences, there is always training, there is always the present situation that will dictate how any individual dog will react at any given time.

I heard from a very smart man concerning breeding, you base those decisions on the dog in front of you, not the pedigree. The same goes for training or what to expect, you base it on the dog, not the paper, or the breed.

Yes byb dogs are often 'watered down' But a herding dog who shows little interest in herding is exactly a stellar example of its kind. Its like the puddin JRTs.. in a way they often make better pets. They tend to have less drive. BUT if you can't handle a JRT IMO then don't get one.

Taking a high drive JRT and training it to ignore rats/raccoons ect.. might work. But that doesn't mean I would ever let it off leash, or alone near one. I would hate to think what you would need to do to Snip to get him to ignore critters when he knows he is off leash.....

Its nature vs nurture. If nature (genetics) was not important then we wouldn't be breeding for temperament or behavioural traits like herding.

I agree-any trainer who thinks that a dogs basic nature can be trained or socialized out is either crazy, or hasn't really worked with anything difficult yet.

Yes and no. Many pets, who are pet quality, who haven't been bred well, who haven't been bred from generations of working traits, won't have the strong breed-specific instincts.

Are there border collies who don't want to herd? JRTs who don't chase prey animals? Yup. But to get a border collie and expect it to be a couch potato or expect a JRT to not try to eat the rat is going to get dangerous.

Training isn't just about training the dog. It's primarily about training the owner, and that may include teaching them how to keep two pit bulls separated, how to ensure the JRT isn't left alone with the cat, that a malinois needs a lot more exercise.

It isn't training that makes a Border collie not grab, bite or kill ...that only makes him do the eye, stalk and chase. That is dictated by a break in the sequence of predatory motor patterns due to selection of the varying level of the onset and offset of development. Domestic dogs are thought to be neotenic versions of other wild canids and have an extended puppyhood. This, influenced by the pituitary hormones seems to cause a disruption in the whole sequence of predatory motor patterns and would not be advantageous in the wild. The individual motor patterns that dogs have happen to be stronger than those of wolves. They just don't have the whole set as wolves do. And different breeds may have different patterns. The predatory developmental motor patterns are: orient, eye, stalk, chase, grab, bite/kill, dissect. In the Border Collie, the sequence cuts off after the chase....or should. Those that went on to grab, bite/kill were culled and those patterns were selected against. Border Collies are not trained to not kill. They just don't. (or shouldn't) With sheep guardian dogs, it not only has to do with predatory patterns, but in large part due to proper early socialization...basically imprinting them to the sheep and less human contact.

Well....I don't explain it very well. Here's a long article and you may want to just skim it. But it is pretty good.

http://www.responsibledog.net/diverse_breed_distinction.html

Actually, the grab is still there. The hold and kill is what's been bred out. An unresponsive stock animal will get bitten by a herding dog, but only enough to make him move and to earn respect. (Which becomes problematic when the herding dog thinks a frog qualifies as livestock ).

LOL. Or a little kid running.



http://books.google.com/books?id=u7...X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA211,M1

Scroll down to the Border Collies behavioral conformation. This explains a lot. Some of these patterns seem to need some training or management to keep them in line. They inherently have a certain number of the sequence, but this talks about threshold and where some human intervention can become necessary.

Apparently, some of these motor patterns may not necessarily come from a functional purpose, such as hunting. But rather...simply a play function...(in domestic dogs) Interesting.

Teehee. My great aunt and uncle had a....to be honest, I don't know what kind of dog. A Collie? An aussie? I was little, I just remember it being fast and fluffy!

My sister and I used to take off in opposite directions on their property and run as fast as we could, while my mom would time how long it took Joey to herd us back together! Problem came when he'd nip our heels!

You can not train the DA out of the APBT... you can control it somewhat but there's no way to train genetics out of a breed :rofl1:

No.. you can't train it out.. but you can breed it out. But then you loose a lot of the other things that makes a APBT an APBT.

And it's an arguable point that when you breed those things out of the APBT, you no longer have an APBT. Temperament IS part of any breed.

IMHO Genetics with dogs (and all species) gives tendencies and physical abilities, training and socialization bring out or suppress these and then you have the final product.

Michael Jordan was not born a great basketball player but his genetic temperament (ie work ethic and competitiveness) and physical tools set the stage for a very good athlete but it was his training (coaching and practice) and his socialization (cultural rewards for excelling in sports) that eventually came together to produce "Air Jordan"

Had Michael Jordan been raised in the slums of Haiti he might very well turned out much differently.

Had Michael Jordan been raised by Jainist monks he could have been different in another way.

I think a dogs environment can have a huge influence how they express their genetics.

Definitely. I totally believe in nature and nurture as highly significant influences in all living things.

Yeaaaaah.... Buuuuuuut..... Michael Jordan's basketball playing isn't an instinct. I think it's a bit different....