Head you win, Tails you lose

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RedyreRottweilers

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From The Canine Chronicle this month
http://www.caninechronicle.com/Features/Grossman_08/grossman_1008.html

HEADS YOU WIN, TAILS YOU LOSE

By Dr. Al Grossman


There has been much rumbling and grumbling in the dog press about tail docking and ear cropping. Much of it based upon the European Unions edicts that will not allow either to be performed or will not allow crop-eared or dock-tailed dogs to compete in conformation events.

Many a kindly person has observed that maybe the Europeans are correct and these are barbaric and hurtful processes and maybe we should fall in line with our European brethren. These cries became especially loud after a long-tailed Cocker Spaniel won the breed at the AKC National Championship show. Of course, AKC had invited foreign dogs knowing full well that these would include long-tailed dogs because no other kind could be exhibited in the European Union.

This has now officially opened a can of worms since most American standards are not really specific enough about what to do with dogs with long tails. Some clubs have put out clarifications that seem only to obviscate the intent of the original standard. Some breed clubs are too timid to even venture a clarification hoping that some “higher†authority will rule on the issue. Of course if that higher authority is the AKC, they have already compromised their objectivity by allowing those undocked dogs to compete in their National Championship show. By the way, every other club in the United States is bound by the judge’s interpretation of the breed standard and not by any AKC ruling. Without a clear across the board ruling by breed clubs, we are stuck in a growing conundrum without any apparent way out.

Let’s take a look at why the European Union has taken their stance. Animal Rights activists have been very strong in all of Europe. When the continent finally determined that they needed to unite to compete economically with the U.S. and to tamp down nationalism to avoid the horrible wars of the past, it was decided to have a single legislative body. This body would make the guiding rules for all nations that wanted to be a part of the Union. The strength of the Animal Rights groups was such that that they were able to include a wide variety of rules and regulations that met with little or no opposition for any of the organized clubs in the region. Therefore, Europe is saddled with a bunch of rules which do not make much sense to the American mind.

Why then are so many so eager to adopt what Europe has done when it runs contrary to what we Americans believe about our dogs and practices we see as beneficial to the dog game in this country?

I see this as another insidious attempt by the Animal Rights groups to control the argument and set the tone for the destruction of the dog game as we know it. We have already been forced to give up many of our prerogatives through biased legislation, we cannot just allow another nail to be driven into our coffin.


Dr. Grossman, an international judge, was the publisher of Doral Publishing, one of the leading dog book publishing houses. Upon selling the business to Bowtie Press in 2004, he began work on a new concept: THE PROFESSIONAL DOG MENTOR. His website is chock full of killer tips on breeding and showing purebred dogs. It is found at www.winningsolutions.info.
 

AGonzalez

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#3
Personally, I don't care if people want to dock/crop. I think typically breeds that are docked and cropped look better that way...so lets keep it that way instead of having our all pervasive government tell us now what we can and cannot do some more.

That's just what we need, is more government **note sarcasm** why can't we wake up and see that our rights are being infringed upon, even with little things that "don't matter" that will eventually lead to large things that do matter!
 

puppydog

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#4
I love the fact that dogs are left natural in my country. Nothing prettier then a dog looking like it is meant to look.
 
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#6
I care more about how it's done than if it's done. I've seen so many barbaric docks (banding) and at home, no pain killer claw removals...not to mention hack jobs on cropping. I'm always amazed when people can dismiss the pain of it when it's done at just a few days old even though we know that the pain is very real, again, if done without pain meds.

I do prefer natural unless there is a REAL structural reason to do it. I like the look better and wish that there wasn't pressure to perform crop/dock surgeries for cosmetic reasons.

I understand the right to do it but I also believe that along with that right comes the responsibility to do it without pain....not simply dismissing what we can't ourselves feel.
 
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#7
I want to preface this statement with: Red and I have discussed this issue of docked/not docked in length and although we agree on some points, we are also able to disagree on others and still remain friends.

I personally have seen (and rescued) enough tailed rottweilers and don't mind at all, a tailed rott. My preference is a docked dog because that is what I'm accustomed to seeing, but I really don't mind a tail dog. I also think that there is significant study done that states there are definite advantages to leaving a dog with it's natural tail.

That being said, as long as there is no written standard for a natural tailed rottweiler in the AKC breed standard, anyone that chooses to participate in AKC conformation shows will need to dock their puppies to be competitive. I'm not saying that you can't show your tailed dog, I'm just saying to be competitive in the rottweiler ring and actually finish you dog, he or she needs to be docked. Can a tailed rottweiler earn its Champion title, sure, but is it likely, no.

Anyone that tells you that docking at 2, 3, ect., days old doesn't hurt the puppy because of the lack of nerve development in the tail, is FULL OF CRA P. The last litter I had was docked. Our appointment was at 4:00pm, so we were done and home by about 5:30. Those puppies cried and were not able to settle until 11:00 that night. Of course they got over it and were fine, but I know for fact that they felt it.

Will I continue to dock, ABSOLUTELY. As long as I am competing in conformation showing, I will continue to dock my puppies. If the laws were to change or the AKC adopts a written standard for a correct tail in the rottweiler breed, would I leave the tails on my puppies, most definitely YES. My biggest issue with the tailed dogs is that if we are going to allow tailed dogs to show here in the AKC, then the AKC needs to come up with a written standard for a correct tail. How can a tailed dog be fairly and correctly judged when there is no written standard to judge that dog by.

This, as always, is JMO.
 
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#8
I want to preface this statement with: Red and I have discussed this issue of docked/not docked in length and although we agree on some points, we are also able to disagree on others and still remain friends.

I personally have seen (and rescued) enough tailed rottweilers and don't mind at all, a tailed rott. My preference is a docked dog because that is what I'm accustomed to seeing, but I really don't mind a tail dog. I also think that there is significant study done that states there are definite advantages to leaving a dog with it's natural tail.

That being said, as long as there is no written standard for a natural tailed rottweiler in the AKC breed standard, anyone that chooses to participate in AKC conformation shows will need to dock their puppies to be competitive. I'm not saying that you can't show your tailed dog, I'm just saying to be competitive in the rottweiler ring and actually finish you dog, he or she needs to be docked. Can a tailed rottweiler earn its Champion title, sure, but is it likely, no.

Anyone that tells you that docking at 2, 3, ect., days old doesn't hurt the puppy because of the lack of nerve development in the tail, is FULL OF CRA P. The last litter I had was docked. Our appointment was at 4:00pm, so we were done and home by about 5:30. Those puppies cried and were not able to settle until 11:00 that night. Of course they got over it and were fine, but I know for fact that they felt it.

Will I continue to dock, ABSOLUTELY. As long as I am competing in conformation showing, I will continue to dock my puppies. If the laws were to change or the AKC adopts a written standard for a correct tail in the rottweiler breed, would I leave the tails on my puppies, most definitely YES. My biggest issue with the tailed dogs is that if we are going to allow tailed dogs to show here in the AKC, then the AKC needs to come up with a written standard for a correct tail. How can a tailed dog be fairly and correctly judged when there is no written standard to judge that dog by.

This, as always, is JMO.
It is such a hard place to be in and I agree that unless things change in the practices and TRUE acceptance of a tailed rott. (or other docked breeds) there is no way that anyone can reasonably expect attitudes and opinions to change about docking.

The studies are clear, docking (including, and often especially banding) is without a doubt a painful cosmetic alteration. Having said that, if I were a Rottweiler breeder, I'd be in a very difficult position.
 

Dekka

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#9
I would say it would be interesting to hear from the people with working terriers in Europe and how their long tails are effecting their work.... except you can't actually work your terriers in most European countries :(
 

JennSLK

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#10
I have to agree with Doc. I love the croped and docked look on the breeds its supposed to be done on.

I can NOT stand cropping or docking a breed that it isnt suposed to be done on. Beagle for example. Dont even get me started on in home crops.

Docking can be done at home by EXPERIANCED breeders, but I have yet to meet a experianced breeder who has a in home sugery suite to do ears.
 
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#11
I *hate* the way the docking ban is changing the rears of PWCs- seeing lots of dogs with parked out rears and a totally differnt topline (and longer body!) to compensate, along with a low, foxy tail like a Cardi, when most of the undocked Pems initially had short little spitzy curled tails.
 
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#12
Personally, I think that if you really want to mangle your dog by cropping their ears or their tail, then that's your choice. It's your dog, if the dog doesn't mind, then that's all that matters.

I on the other hand, have always and will always refuse to crop any part of my animals unless it's a medical emergency. I figure, if the dog was born with his full tail, he should keep his whole tale. Those are just my thoughts on the subject.
 
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#13
I on the other hand, have always and will always refuse to crop any part of my animals unless it's a medical emergency. I figure, if the dog was born with his full tail, he should keep his whole tale. Those are just my thoughts on the subject.
That's fine if the dog is going to be a family pet, or compete in things other than confirmation shows or maybe field events that require a modification for safety or function.

But docks and crops are written into confirmation standards for some breeds. So unfortunately it's highly unlikely that an un-modified dog of those breeds will ever win any confirmation titles ... as mentioned by a couple earlier posts.

Hear ya though ... but instead I simply choose to own breeds that are not deemed to "need" any cosmetic surgical modifications. :::shrug:::
 
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#14
That's fine if the dog is going to be a family pet, or compete in things other than confirmation shows or maybe field events that require a modification for safety or function.

But docks and crops are written into confirmation standards for some breeds. So unfortunately it's highly unlikely that an un-modified dog of those breeds will ever win any confirmation titles ... as mentioned by a couple earlier posts.
^^
That actully depends on the area where a person lives and where the judge is from.

In some of the FCI countries is allowed to keep a dog croped or undocked if you whant to ;) , and a docked/cropped dog is not a guarantee to win over a undocked/ uncroped dog.

But In some europeans contries the docked/cropped dogs can't even enter in a ring.

The last show dog I went a tailed rott won over like 10 docked dogs, he even won BIS, but months before in the expo before that one a docked dog won.

Rencently I have notice that many standars of the FCI, have a despriction of compleatle ears and tails when before they didn't, in some cases the description of a docked tail or cropped ears have beein taken off the standar like with the rottweiler or the boxer.
 
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noodlerubyallie

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#15
To show a Doberman at an AKC event, the dog must be cropped/docked. If I were completely against either cropping or docking, I would choose a different breed, or a pet quality dog that doesn't have to have to have it.

I agree with Golden.
 

JennSLK

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#17
Forgot to add in my post that it also depends on a judge preferences, and the quality of the dog.

The 2007 eukanuba world challenge winner was an american cocker with a tail. http://www.eukanuba.com/EukGlobal/US/en/jsp/EWC/winner/Winner.jsp
Yes. However the Euk world competition is a invite to top dogs from all over the world. The judges must keep in mind that the standards for cropping/docking are/may be different. Also if you notice in his win pic how the handler is holding the tail. That is because he wants to make it look as though his tail has been docked since that is what we are used to seeing in N. Am.

The only dobe with an ear I have seen in person, was showing around here. I dont think she won once. Mind you she wasnt the best of quality.

The nice thing about it is if you have a eared dobe you just pic your judges. Say dont show under a US judge. Show under a UK judge or a judge from a place were they are used to seeing ears.

Personaly I will allways crop and dock
 
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Squishy22

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#18
I think cropping and docking should be left up to the breeders and owners. Its been going on for such a long time now, I dont see why it should be banned. And to be honest, I'd be furious if it were outlawed. Some call it cruel and a "mangling", but I disagree. People get their newborns circumcised and that causes just as much pain as a docking would, in my opinion.

If it is done properly and as humanely as possible, I have no problem with it at all. I do think rotties look just as stunning with tails as they do without, if not, more. Thats my own personal opinion. As for dobies and cropping, I think they would lose their "look" if cropping was outlawed. They would look like a hound. If I ever got a dobie, he would most certainly be cropped and docked. Again, its up to the breeders and owners to make their own decision.
 

puppydog

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#19
Dobes are not cropped in SA. So to me a cropped Dobe looks aweful.
 

Dekka

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#20
To show a Doberman at an AKC event, the dog must be cropped/docked. If I were completely against either cropping or docking, I would choose a different breed, or a pet quality dog that doesn't have to have to have it.

I agree with Golden.
The problem with that is then you can't go with a good breeder. At 3 days old I can't tell what is going to be a show prospect and what isn't. I can't tell at 3 days what their personalities will be like to say "ok that one is will be perfect for this person so no docking" or "that one will never hunt so it doesn't need to be done" etc etc
 

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