I Don't Seem To Get It?

I think you are confused because there is a difference between being dog aggressive and people aggressive. BSL is mostly about being people aggressive. Dog parks is about being dog aggressive. Many pit bulls are dog aggressive and even with a lot of training it can't be trained out of many dogs. So, no, many pit bulls (for example) shouldn't be at dog parks. That doesn't mean they should be kicked out of the county!


edit: nvrmind - should have read through

Hit the nail on the head there! Does Ronin go to big public dog parks? No way! Does he go to the semi-private dog park if there are other dogs there? No way! Ronin is DANGEROUS around other loose dogs, particularly if they are male. He can only be trusted offleash around his family (Ilsa and Ada) and now, Jack the male ES in a VERY controlled environment. It's taken nearly 2 years for Ronin to accept Jack - and Jack is very VERY submissive to him.

A female dobe i'd be more likely to take to a dog park. But taking a male doberman into a dog park willy-nilly is, IMO, stupid and irresponsible.

Dobes are DA? Wow, lol. Thats the breed that behaves the most out of any breed I have seen at dog parks (from my own experience). Probably because all of them were more interested in their owner and their ball than anything... even unaltered males. :yikes:

Its ok, I get your point....I was trying to use bsl as a fighting example for pro-pit bulls in the park. I see how the two are not alike.

Sawyer has enjoyed plenty of play sessions with ABPT's at the park, but I'm also always standing right there watching body language and making sure that things don't escalate or move towards a situation where other drives might be triggered. I do this will all strange dogs he plays with though, so it's not just the ABPT's.

It never pose to me a threat to have a behaved pit bull in the park. So differs between the two? Wasn't not so long ago dobes were the ''target'' dogs, but its fine for *most* people to have them in parks. I guess I'm so use to hearing pro-pit bull stuff, with kids, other pets, even other dogs, I thought they had the same potential as every dog to be ''dog park material''.

See Saje's post.

No. But common sense dictates that we should keep them out of dangerous situations. Out and about, on leash, in public.. necessary for dogs. They have to have vet visits and socialization. Off-leash, in a dog park, where many other dogs of varying temperaments, manners and controllability is NOT necessary for a dog. You're comparing a necessary situation for most dogs where they and most other dogs they will encounter are under control vs a situation where dogs will, in a relatively small enclosure, be practically forced to interact with MANY other dogs who may or may not: have manners, be under their owner's [voice] control, be socialized, be of the right temperament/personality for a dog park, etc. The comparison is just crazy, IMO.

It's comparing a doggie free-for-all with a controlled environment where, most likely, they will not have to interact with any other dogs at all.


I just have to say, Saje, you rock. You managed to succinctly state what I've been trying to get at in TWO posts in like two sentences. Dang you.

They don't. Dogs who are members of a typically DA breed don't. I have no idea how to make that clearer.

There's a difference in being "pro pit bull" and being unrealistic and reckless. There's a difference between not being the evil thing the media portrays you as and being dog park material.

DA does not make a dog bad, or evil. It's not being "anti-pit bull" to suggest a member of a DA breed does not belong in a dog park. It's not buying into the media's false assumptions about them. It is making a realistic judgement based on the breed's traits and previous examples other people have made with their dogs. It's learning from past mistakes. It's having a little common sense. It's knowing your breed.

We are not, I repeat, WE ARE NOT saying this because deep-down we are buying into the myth of "pit bulls are evil" as shown to us by the media. That seems to be what your argument boils down to.

If my breed is DA, then yes, it might be my breed banned from dog parks. Considering I don't actually know any dog parks with breed restrictions, and don't think this is widespread, it's not a current worry of mine. And you know what? Even if it was a worry, if I had a member of a typically DA breed I wouldn't be bringing them to a dog park anyway, so it's a moot point.

Being the "target" dog of the media so far hasn't seemed to have any effect on dog parks. If it has, very little, then, because I'm not seeing cross-postings of "PIT BULLS BANNED AT DOG PARKS IN DENVER, CO" - because, wait, "pit bulls" already are banned there! The problem is not restriction at dog parks, the problem is restriction of ownership.. and that they are being seized and killed because they are a member of a certain breed. It has NOTHING to do with their DA-ness, ONLY that the media needs a scapegoat and AR-activists need an excuse to erode more of our rights and kill more dogs.

I won't be crying about my dogs not being accepted at dog parks.. I will be talking about how they are being KILLED. I will be talking about mandatory spay/neuter for these dogs. I will be talking about how I am not allowed to own them. I will be talking about the MYTHS about these dogs. I wont be picketing town hall, because, ZOMG, Rex isn't allowed at the dog park. Bigger. Fish. To Fry. (Not to mention the near-total lack of relation between DA and BSL.)

lol you had already said it. I was just getting ahead of myself.

You stated it without rambling, which I cannot seem to do. I'm having trouble gathering my thoughts tonight, otherwise I would state things as succinctly as possible. BAH. (If it weren't for spell checker, I'd be having trouble SPELLING thoughts.. yeesh)

I'm too tired to do much else We want for a long walk again today! 3+ hours

Half a mile here + leash-training boot camp the whole way. So I can't *completely* sympathize, but yeah, I know what you mean. LOL!

Leaving the whole dog park thing out of it (as I neither agree with, nor attend them), the statements you have made above, are a gross generalization. Just because a breed CAN have a tendency to be DA in certain instances, does not mean they eventually, invariably WILL be. ANY breed CAN be DA. And the multitudes of people on this site with DA dogs of all breeds and sizes are an example of that. That's like saying that Great Danes are a "stupid" breed. You cannot generalize all members of a breed based on the actions of a percentage. I have owned Pitties (still do) and been around countless others - never was one DA. I'm not saying they can't be; I'm just saying to insinuate they're automatically more apt to be than any other dog, is unfair, and untrue. If it's bred from fighting lines, raised improperly, or lacks training, fine, maybe, but barring that . . .

Saying that Pit Bull owners "sugar-coat it, or gloss over the topic"? What topic would that be? That their dog, because some in the news or some with ****ty owners have, is more likely to hate on, "bully" or attack another dog? That's crap. Why should I walk around issuing a catchall public service announcement about DA Pit Bulls, when mine isn't one? Just so that I don't get accused of "sugar-coating" anything? Nope. Sorry. I'm not going to contribute to the stigma against my dog just to make uneducated, bigoted and media-led people feel better about it.

"Too many owners think their "pit bull" is just like any other dog." Pit Bull's ARE a dog. And should be seen as such; not automatically assumed to be thugs just because of their breed. A dog, is a dog. Like I said, barring poor breeding, mistreatment, or lack of training, I urge you to find me a Pit Bull (or any other dog) that doesn't act like, well, a DOG. Should we say Rotties are inherently DA, because they can be? Or that GSDs are more likely to attack a person, because for so many years they have assisted law inforcement, in having been trained to?

As for your theory of Pits not backing down from a fight, or whatever you were getting at? I own a Pit Bull who has been ATTACKED, not challenged, but ATTACKED, by multiple dogs over the years. More often than not, by smaller breeds in fact. Not once did he retaliate, snap, fight back, or attack. Not once did he abandon his TRAINED BOUNDARIES that prohibit aggression, and not once did he "all of a sudden" go from being a sweet dog, to a DA one.

ANY dog is capable of being DA, and until people stop focusing on breed as a determining factor, crap like BSL and breed-profiling will never stop.

I think the day we realise the potential ANY large, strong and WILLFUL dog can do, the better.

If you own a pit bull, you need to know what it is capable of in the UNLIKELY event it attacked.

Same with any large breed or mix breed.

I am fully aware of what Bodhi could do. She is HIGHLY unlikely to EVER EVER do anything, but I am aware, and I won't place her in a situation unecessarily (like with kids).

I think it's when people start pushing this image of large dogs being foo foo's that we get issues.

All the pictures of kids alone and sprawled over pitbulls makes me shudder, because then people just assume - hey, lets get a pittie and little johnny can crawl all over it!!

Irrespective of breed, you just do not want to do that................... But I think that is more prominent because anti-BSL is generally aimed at pits, so those are the pictures you see.

I think anti-BSL while a good cause, needs to really carefully address the message it puts across.

Pitbulls are good family pets - YES. Are they angels which might never bite - NO - all dogs can bite.......

You want a pitbull (rottie, large mix of both, anything capable of biting and causing harm) then show you're responsible enough to own one and KNOW what it can do and show you can CONTROL that dog.... If you can't control a large breed it's not for you.

I think that is the message that is needed over "look how cute my pit is".

And when your dog ends up in a fight and *fuels* that uneducated, bigoted, media-led hysteria, then what? We don't get second chances with these dogs right now. We don't get to make mistakes, because our mistakes can impact not only our own dogs and our own lives, but all the pit bulls and their owners in our cities, in our states. How is that fair?

So a Golden Retriever is the same as a Jack Russell is the same as a Sheltie is the same as a Greyhound? Nope, don't buy it. Part of what breed IS is temperament. Traits that make up the whole are more than looks. They are function, they are tendencies. Breeds *are* stereotypes, and while, yes, there will be dogs that don't fit the standard perfectly, the whole point of breed is to discuss a population of dogs.

Your exception does not unmake the rule. Nor does Harv, my exception, unmake the rule. We are looking at a much larger population than two dogs.

ETA: Nolu :hail:

I am REALLY hoping that someone that has been educated on APBTs longer than I have, comes to this thread and can shed some light on the theory of "bait dogs". Because I've read conflicting stories. The @sses that fight dogs now??? Sure, they might find it necessary to use bait dogs, but I do NOT believe that the dogmen of the ol' used bait dogs. I *think* that is a myth. Like I've said, I've read conflicting theories/beliefs/rules/actual events.


BSL exists because of the misconceptions (that is often ran with) of pit bulls being human aggressive. Sure, it's possible that when you add dog aggression to that mix, it just adds fuel to the BSL fire. BUT, with the condition this breed's rep is in today, knowledgeable, responsible owners will NOT bring their pit bulls to dog parks. I surely don't and NEVER considered it even before Ella became dog aggressive. I'm not going to risk OTHER PEOPLE'S ability to own the breed, nor am I going to risk my dog going from "Let's PLAY!" to "I'M GOING TO HURT YOU!" in 1-2 seconds (which is faster than I know I can react and prevent a situation.). The fact is, just as much as dog aggression is a genetic possibility with APBTs, it's just as much as a genetic possibility that a pit bull NOT be human aggressive because of their specific "bred for" breed traits.



MOST APBTs mature into dog tolerant dogs, IF they don't mature into dog aggressive dogs. There's a difference between dog tolerant dogs vs. dog social dogs vs. dog friendly dogs.
Here's a good link to it: Dog Tolerance Levels


The fact is, most mature APBTs do NOT going seeking the attention of other dogs. They may TOLERATE them, but most don't go seeking it. And that's because of their genetic make up. Sure, there "soft" dogs. But it's important to know, that is not the norm. It's most responsible for us pit bull owners NOT to put our dogs into situations where there is a higher chance for failure.

Well said! I don't think it's fair to a dog to put it in a situation where generations of selective breeding could let it down and basically lead to its death (because with all the pit bull hysteria, that's what it could come down to if it attacked another dog, especially fatally.)

I was very surprised when I saw a sign at Camp Bow-Wow that said " No Pitbulls " !I had to leave Ollie there for a minimum of 3 hrs. prior to them accepting him .

Pits are like any other dog. Every breed has traits that responsible owners MUST know about and must be prepared to deal with.

For example, can individual greyhounds be placed in homes with cats and do fine? Yes. But don't be shocked if your greyhound chases and kills the neighbors cat if it's left off lead with it.

Part of the reason I am not looking at a sight hound anymore is because I have 'small fluffies'. I've seen a pap at a show make a quick move and the borzoi next to it went immediately into 'chase and catch' mode. It's what they were bred to do. It does not make them 'bad dogs'.

Not all dog breeds are going to be as safe as another in certain situations. A responsible owner will chose dogs with breed traits that they can handle. I do not feel comfortable right now handling a dog aggressive dog, so I'll avoid breeds known to be DA. Of course individuals of other breeds can become DA. In my opinion DA prone breeds and individuals who are DA DO NOT belong in a dog park.

It sucks, but it's the truth.

In the same way, I don't think toys belong in dog parks without size limits. And I don't think a dog that is high prey drive that would be likely to view a toy dog as prey belongs in a dog park without size limits. If you got those two dogs together, it'd be disaster. Ideally both owners would be responsible, but that's rarely the case. So I never go to dog parks. It's a sacrifice I am MORE than willing to make to ensure my little dogs don't start a problem or worse get hurt or killed by triggering a strange dog's prey instinct. There are many more, safer ways to socialize your dogs with other dogs in a more controlled environment.

Not every breed is made for the same situation. It's fact. Not fair, but that's what you sign up for when you choose a breed. If you really are a 'dog park person' then find a breed that is more suitable for the dog park. Don't expect a breed that is known for being aggressive towards other dogs to be fine in a situation where many unknown dogs will be running around. It's just really not a smart idea. You're setting yourself up for a problem.

Breed standards aren't true for EVERY individual, but they are what you should expect. Do NOT be surprised when your retriever retrieves, your sheltie barks all day and night and nips your heels (lol, had to add that in), your greyhound wants to chase small animals, your terrier kills small animals, or your pit bull becomes dog aggressive. You signed up for that. If a dog aggressive breed doesn't fit your lifestyle, then I'd honestly suggest looking at a different breed. Whenever someone asks about a breed, people can tell you basically what to expect. Oh you want a JRT, well they can be same sex aggressive, they have loads of energy, etc... Or a sheltie? Well then expect a barky dog, sensitive, but doesn't like strangers. Breeds were bred for different reasons, so they have different traits. Each breed has their 'problems' and 'issues' you have to manage, not just pit bulls. It's just with pits one of those traits you HAVE to manage is dog aggression.

BSL will not be fought by pretending all dogs are the same- they're not. BSL will best be fought by EDUCATED owners who are realistic about their dogs, their dog's breed, and these tendencies. It doesn't do anyone a favor by pretending that dog aggression isn't common and isn't correct in the breed. It just sets others up for more problems.

I don't think any dogs are good dog park material. In most cases, there are too many dogs, not enough owners paying attention, and a general recipe for disaster