Cropping and docking illegal in New York

[sillysally]

Originally Posted by smkie

There are a million aspects of the dog world that need correcting but one does not make the other less important. IT's all important.

While I am not in favor of anti-C/D laws, I do agree that the whole "bigger fish to fry" argument is a bit weak.

I mean, there are worse things than BYBs, so why do we bother getting upset about them? Hell, why should people get their panties all in a bunch when they find out someone feeds a "grocery brand" dog food? Surely, there are worse things in life for dogs than feeding them Iams? There are some dog people who are more than happy to be up in other owner's business on the issues of breeders and kibble, but all of the sudden cropping and docking is out of bounds because there are bigger fish to fry?

And why stop with dog care? Why be so concerned with animals anyway, when there is so much human suffering? I mean seriously, why should we care about homeless dogs when there are homeless kids? What are we doing worrying about puppy mills when there child sex slaves? What is the point of being concerned about dog fighting when in Africa there are boys forced into becoming soldiers at age 10?

[smkie]

Pain is pain no matter where it comes from, no matter how inflicted. Mental hurts as much as physical and neglect of the soul is as bad as neglect of the body. All i know for absolute sure in this whole wide world is that i do not want to inflict any kind of pain on the ones that love me most. I am happy that i can stroke all 365 nerves in Mary's ears and make her feel better which i spent a great deal of last night doing. I am glad she backed her bottom up to the bedroom door to wack it with her wimpy pitiful german shorthair tail to let me know how happy she was to be standing. SHe can't hear it anymore, but she does it just like she did when she could. I do not want to harm anything. WHen you look at the long range spaying IMO is not an option because the John Q Public is not going to be as diligent as Dekka or RED and that will result in More suffering as our shelters could prove daily. WHich is why i work so hard on my art unleashed donation each year. I think this will be 10 more free spay and neuters. I think how many puppies and kittens will not be in the situation as the rescued boxers started with. IT makes all the effort worth it. You can bet i would not work so hard for free crop and dock. I would go to the lake instead and play. If you stopped cropping ears and tails more suffering is not going to be continued which is why it is pointless to compare the two. That is how i see it. IF you had never saw a cropped ear in the first place you would find the ones they have as lovely as I do. I wouldn't keep coming back every time this topic comes up if I did not feel as strongly about it as I do. The baby stage is so short. IT should not have a second of discomfort.

[Dekka]

Originally Posted by Groch

Some participants in this discussion have painted everyone who is against docking/cropping as if they are ignorant and misinformed, or an Animal Rights Crazy.

The fact is, if you care about the health and well being of your dog more than the way they look. you will not dock/crop.

This is fact. This is not my uninformed opinion.

This is the opinion of the American Veteranary Medical Association.

The AVMA is not a weird Animal Rights Group.

The AVMA is the single organization that certifies ALL veteranary schools in the United States.

If your vet does cropping, that is their right, but they are acting against AVMA standards.

The AVMA does not take positions on procedures that are not backed by solid scientific evidence. (for example, they have not taken any stand against force feeding ducks to make foir gras because their is not enough scientific evidence that it does significant harm or causes pain).

You can read about their position on the risks of cropping/docking on their site here:

AVMA opposes cosmetic ear cropping, tail docking of dogs - December 15, 2008


I am sure their are many things worst done to animals and people than docking/cropping.

The fact that cosmetic cropping has more risks than benefits does not mean their should be a law against it.

It also does also not mean that it is the right thing to do.

Actually if you do a bit of research this was PUSHED by ARista types. I know the stance they took... if they really were working for the best interest of the dog they wouldn't be doing this. All this means is more people are going to be trying this at home. How is that better for the dogs?

So you think its ok for a JRT with a long whippy tail to go into a hole after quarry then? You think its all an illusion that JRTs with tails are no more agile, balanced etc than docked JRTs. I can tell you they act NO different, are not faster or more balanced on the agility course or when racing. I can tell you animals with amputations or major injuries often act defencive if you go to grab them where they 'hurt' or have a history of hurt. You can grab a JRT by the tail and they DON'T care. More than any other breed they are fine with being grabbed by the tail (their tail is supposed to be a handle in case you need to yank them out of a hole!!)

More on the AVMA. They push s/n? Why? its more painful, has greater side effects, more riskes.. but I bet your dog is 'fixed'. I find it pretty hypocritical for those to push s/n on everyone but ban c/d. If you want to ban both.. well at least I could respect that.

The AVMA pushes vaccines a lot more regularly than I give. Are they the gospel? NO lol!! They are like any other group, much of what they push is good, but a lot is self serving too. One of the arguments for yearly vaccines is not for disease prevention but to get people in the door once a year.

If we want to take this further...Why do we allow the propagation of breeds that need C sections? Why do allow breeds like the giant ones with such short life spans? Why do we allow people to create dogs who will have breathing problems as normal part of the breed? How about extreme coats? I am sure its painful to have the knots brushed out regularly! I know how much knots hurt in my hair.. and that is not over my whole body.

Can't you see where this goes? Yes c/d is likely a bit painful, but so is microchipping, neither seem to hurt as much as a spay, having knots brushed out causes pain, breeding dogs with short noses, heavy bodies, very large dogs... all can cause suffering and shortened lives... so yes if you want to stop all man made suffering you will pretty much have to ban most if not all breeds and be done with it.

[Renee750il]

I have a very difficult time accepting things as gospel just because the AVMA and/or someone's vet preaches it.

It's getting difficult to walk in a vet's office and not see one of those lurid H$U$ dog fighting bounty posters and we all know THAT is nothing more than AR BS. Look at the crappy foods they recommend. And Dekka's examples of all the pushing of over vaccinating and early spay/neuters are prime illustrations that should be telling thinking people that maybe we need to question these "expert" opinions a whole lot more.

[Groch]

If your view is that the AVMA, which is the single most authoritative organization in the world on the science of animal health, and certifies all vets is dominated by those who want to ban pets and end the commercial use of animals you are just.......well lets just say it says a lot more about your own world view than it does about the AVMA.


Vets make 99% of their income off pets and commercial animals.

Vets make money off of docking/cropping...this is against their financial interest.

The AVMA opposes cropping/docking for cosmetic reasons because it causes severe unnecessary pain, poses significant health risks for infection, and has no medical benefits for pet dogs. They know a lot about pet health, and I applaud them for taking a stand that is not based on greed.


They do NOT say that cropping/docking should be illegal, they do encourage the AKC to change their policy requiring it for some breed competitions.

They take exactly the right view.

[Fransheska101]

I think show dogs with both the cropped/uncropped look should have the same chances of winning/placing!

[Dekka]

Originally Posted by Groch

If your view is that the AVMA, which is the single most authoritative organization in the world on the science of animal health, and certifies all vets is dominated by those who want to ban pets and end the commercial use of animals you are just.......well lets just say it says a lot more about your own world view than it does about the AVMA.


Vets make 99% of their income off pets and commercial animals.

Vets make money off of docking/cropping...this is against their financial interest.

The AVMA opposes cropping/docking for cosmetic reasons because it causes severe unnecessary pain, poses significant health risks for infection, and has no medical benefits for pet dogs. They know a lot about pet health, and I applaud them for taking a stand that is not based on greed.

exactly.. so its against the dogs interest as now people WILL be doing this at home! I would rather get my pups done in a vets office but now I can't. So it will have to be done by another breeder. I would rather it be done at the vets *shrug. If the goal was to help animals they would work to make it less 'necessary' (in some cases it still is.. but I will grant you the number of dogs who need it for working is small). More dogs are likely to suffer at the hands of people who don't know what they are doing by this decsion.

And since its against their own financial decision... well in just who's interest is this in?

The ARistas. I am sorry if you can't see this. But its not in the dog's or the vet's interest.. so why is it done?

What is your connection to the vet world? Or the drug/pharmacy world? I am in the biotech industry (forensics actually but I have friends who went into pharmacuticals) Its interesting how much lobbying is done by drug companies. The AVMA is not out there for the interest of dogs.. its out there for the interest of the AVMA and perhaps vets. Come on.. these people push science diet! (why.. because Hill's gives them lots of money and courts vet students!)

I am not one to see a conspiracy everywhere. (or really anywhere) But I do realize that big groups are not out for 'my' or 'my pets' welfare.. they are out for their own wellfare. I am fine with that. But I do look at sources before I believe studies.. I do look at scientific process and what journals things get published in before I accept it. A skeptical nature makes a good scientist.. a credulous one makes a good client. I research hard before I swallow propaganda.

And while docking may have no medical reason.. I would be mightily pissed if I lost a dog (dogs DO die hunting.... not often but it happens) due to having a tail. Not all benefits are medical.. some are safety.

[Groch]

Originally Posted by Dekka

But I do look at sources before I believe studies..... A skeptical nature makes a good scientist.. a credulous one makes a good client. I research hard before I swallow propaganda......

That is exactly what we all should be doing, looking for evidence, being skeptical. Please read what the AVMA said

AVMA opposes cosmetic ear cropping, tail docking of dogs - December 15, 2008

Dekka, then please look at the article that started this post which stated that docking/cropping was going to be illegal.

It is a lie, it is propaganda from start to finish. The bill did not pass, the AKC worked against it from the start. The article was a fabrication to rile people up based on false claims. I cannot think of a better example of pure propaganda.

Are you defending this article, that does not seem consistant with your supposed view.

Why are you so upset about the AVMA taking a stand based on facts, and not concerned (it seems) about the blatent lies in the article that started this thread?

[Dekka]

Originally Posted by Groch

That is exactly what we all should be doing, looking for evidence, being skeptical. Please read what the AVMA said

AVMA opposes cosmetic ear cropping, tail docking of dogs - December 15, 2008

Dekka, then please look at the article that started this post which stated that docking/cropping was going to be illegal.

It is a lie, it is propaganda from start to finish. The bill did not pass, the AKC worked against it from the start. The article was a fabrication to rile people up based on false claims. I cannot think of a better example of pure propaganda.

Are you defending this article, that does not seem consistant with your supposed view.

Why are you so upset about the AVMA taking a stand based on facts, and not concerned (it seems) about the blatent lies in the article that started this thread?

I NEVER EVER said I supported the article.. show me where you think I did. I am not talking about the article at all. In fact I was responding to direct comments posted in the thread.

[puppydog]

Originally Posted by smkie

If your hunting in dense scrub be prepared for alot more then a torn tail.
Besides i have had a pointer or pointer mix for the last 20 years that I have run in brush, heavy brush once a week or so. NEver have we had a tail injury. Thorns, scratchs, cut pads, scraps, but the tail has remained unscathed. THe tail on a german shorthair pointer is silly, wimpy, and i believe that is why they cut it off. IT's just not elegant. THe only tail injuries i have seen were obtained by wagging hard in a chain link run.

Because the thorn scrub starts at human mid thigh point, right where an unprotected tail is going to get caught in it.

To the other person, can't remember who, African Hunting dogs have just that, a BUSHY tail. That way it is protected by the wirey hair. It is also carried at an angle over the back and they hunt in Savanah, not scrub lands.