Contact help..

[adojrts]

I am not to sure what you mean but I ll give it a go.
There are different types of focus when running a course, there is handler focus, which is being ready to focus on the handler to follow a directional.
And there is obstacle focus, we need our dogs to focus on the task at hand instead of where or what the handler is doing. Weaves and contacts require the dog to be much more focused on what they are doing, not what the handler is doing. Therefore we require a dog on any given sequence or course to change back and forth between obstacle focus and handler focus.

Focus during a run or sequence when training should be rewarded. But having said that focus has to be trained, some dogs get very distracted or are being asked to do far more than the level of training that they have had, therefore they can be 'unfocused'.
You have to be careful not to confuse unfocused and stress behaviours.
Your dog can give you stress behaviours for many reasons, one of the main ones is handler unrealistic expectations and the dog not knowing its job well enough, in short not enough correct training but the handler still wants to 'run agility'.
Do we reward after a run for attention? No, we reward for a job well done, even if there are mistakes and NQ's, which focus is a huge part of.
Do I reward my dog for blowing me off and being unfocused? Well that would depend on why the dog did what it did and what it did. If the dog left the ring to go visit someone.........no I wouldn't reward them. If they started to get the zoomies, I would try to figure out why, is he just feeling very good and over the top? If so I need to leave the agility equipment alone and work on expelling some of that energy and gaining focus on me, then try again.
If the dog is sniffing and tuning out, we need to work on focus and fun games, lower the difficulty level to the level that we know the dog is successful.

Check out this link

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/t67311/
This is a pic of Petie and I, it a perfect example of a dog working in obstacle focus, he is looking and driving forward at speed. He is not concerned about where I am or what I am doing. He has been trained to carry on no matter what I do, I can take off running in the opposite direction and he will continue on with what he was directed to do. Now having said that, obviously he is not a novice dog, it takes A LOT of dedicated training to get to this point (plus its fun!!)

[BostonBanker]

I'm FAR from the expert on contacts (I'm one of the ones spending the entire winter working on it after realizing we didn't have them down well enough to compete), but your comment on the backchaining killing the drive is something I've dealt with. My dog is VERY soft and had practically no drive when we started. Every bit of training we do with her takes that into account, and her confidence and drive have soared with the help of my instructors. I don't think someone watching her work today would believe how she used to be.

Backchaining did slow her down at first, but I think it had to. She needed to figure out what I wanted and to get it right 99.9% of the time (because much less success than that and she shuts down), and she wasn't physically or mentally capable of doing it at speed at the time. Nothing shuts her drive off faster than her being uncertain. Once she understood the behavior, she was able to add more speed. We've been working on her 2on2off for almost four months now, and we are just barely to the point where she does complete (but very low) contact equipment in short sequences. It took that long for her to really understand the behavior enough to perform it with confidence at speed.

So, in other words, I wouldn't turn away from backchaining immediately just because it slowed your dog down. Take the time to really train it, and in my experience, you can add the speed back in later.

[Bear Luv]

I just feel like her focus and drive has been completely off lately. After our last trial, I had really been considering giving up, my mind was elsewhere, and I didnt take her outside and run her, because, when I did, she wouldnt do it.

before our trial, she was really speedy and focused on me completely. But for some reason, no matter what, I cant get that focus back, so having the backchaining kill her the little drive she had left, just about killed me on the inside. Its why I stopped training them.

I realize being able to compete takes a lot of hard work, and I want to get there, just the last two days feel like its never gonna happen.

I have tried focus games, like dropping a piece of food on the ground, and having her look at me till I tell her she can have it, but thats not it, outside, its like she doesnt want to do it anymore....

Diane

[BostonBanker]

Like I said, that's exactly the sort of behavior I get from Meg when she is uncertain. For her, it has nothing to do with focus; her focus on me is incredible. But if she doesn't know what I want and is worried, she won't make eye contact, and will just slink around and refuse to play with me. Luckily it has been a long time since we've gotten to that point.

I'll repeat what others have said - even a few sessions with a good pro may be enough to get you back on track for a while. I'd be lost without the help of my instructors, and would have given up a long time ago. You can educate yourself all you want with books, dvds, and information from message boards, but these are people who have seen hundreds of dogs go through the same sort of stuff. That sort of education has to be "earned" for lack of a better word.

What if you just left contacts alone for a while and did some really simple stuff to get your dog going again? If Meg is ever started to appear worried, I'll do really easy things like a speed circle (just jumps and tunnels, with a reward thrown at any point where she starts to pick up speed) or just a line of jumps with a bait bag at the end that she can target to.

Ado, step in and correct any mistakes I've made!

[Bear Luv]

I dont know whats up with her. I really would rather not take lessons, I know it would be beneficial, but I would really like to see how far we can go. I would love to train dogs for a living, and I think, even if its just for a few months, till I give in, I would like to try it.

I am giving it till the end of February, not for her to learn her contacts, but if she isnt really improving...

I am going to be getting actual weave poles tomorrow, and we are going to work on those, and small courses.

if you were curious about what her contacts looked like...here is our video from a few days ago.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Vgms5FTxE8A

I cut out most of her bad runs, and for her, this is out of it, I can try, and get a video to compare her regular drive to, but in this video, and that practice, it was like down 5 notches.

Diane

[adojrts]

Originally Posted by Bear Luv

I dont know whats up with her. I really would rather not take lessons, I know it would be beneficial, but I would really like to see how far we can go. I would love to train dogs for a living, and I think, even if its just for a few months, till I give in, I would like to try it.

I am giving it till the end of February, not for her to learn her contacts, but if she isnt really improving...

I am going to be getting actual weave poles tomorrow, and we are going to work on those, and small courses.

if you were curious about what her contacts looked like...here is our video from a few days ago.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Vgms5FTxE8A

I cut out most of her bad runs, and for her, this is out of it, I can try, and get a video to compare her regular drive to, but in this video, and that practice, it was like down 5 notches.

Diane

Boston, you did great, no need for me to comment on what you posted

Diane:
Are you ready for this? This is what I see, what I will be posting is the notes that I made while watching the video many times. BTW, your dog is focused on you.

Notes:

Is there a target on the ground? - dog is looking at toy and handler, no nose touch for a proper 2o2o, the toy/tug tossed out in front of the contact only a couple of times (which the dog finds most rewarding, from just viewing this video), sharp turns with one stride to a full height jump, is the dog always trained with full height jumps? handler sometimes using 'evil arm/hand' - arm/hand on opposite side of body, which is an unclear cue to the dog because it is blocked by the handlers body. Cueing should always be done from the same side as the dog, with the exception of RFP. Toy/tug is always present and visable, being used as a lure, should be hidden when carried by the handler. Tug/toy should be thrown by the hand closest to the dog, never happens. Contact means to the dog, don't do it until the handler is close and hovering. Dog slows down after the apex of frame, waiting for handler to get into position. Handler often stepping closer or using lower body to block as pelvis rocks forward and knee is bent, dog is cueing off that as well, handler is often facing dog, instead of facing forward (lucky that the dog doesn't swing hindend off the contact). Handler nevers forward with the dog after the contact to reward. Sometimes there is a hand cue, sometimes there isn't, dog doesn't do the contact unless the handler uses that hand cue. Handler never works from the other side, nor runs different sequences. Dog does the contact as the handler requires after many attempts, then the dog is asked to jump and THEN is rewarded, not when it should have been after the contact was done. Dog is focused more on the handler, looking for all those cues and is not doing obstacle focus.

Did I count 21 times of doing the frame??? All in one session? If so that is ONE of the reasons she doesn't want to play- Drilling.

And you cut out most of her bad runs? This looks like it was taped all in one session, just how long do you train?
She looks like a lovely dog, who is trying very hard to please you btw.

[Bear Luv]

Mmkay, the session was about 20 minutes long, give or take.

I am not sure how else I am supposed to train contact...lol. To be honest, thats why I am looking for direction, no one on youtube has given me much advice on how to train effectively.

I cut out the runs she wasnt focusing.

I know I am supposed to work on the other side, and distance, but I wanted to make sure she understood that she needed to stop first, and usually, I dont train with 24" jumps, I didnt realize it was that high, normally they are at 18".

I tried training with a target, but she wont stop and touch it, at all. She know ths command, and will do it, just not on the A-frame. Or dog walk, or any part of agility. Its been torture just trying to get her to stop, she likes to move.

I havent trained this way before, ever, I seriously just guessed at where to begin, but since then, have added a tunnel in front, so she has to go through that then turn, then stop for 2o2o, then toy is throw over a jump after she makes a 2o2o. Sometimes I throw the toy, sometimes I dont. I am right handed, and it feels more comfortable to throw it in that hand.

Should I use a food plate? or something to see if that works?

I am a noob when it comes to this kind of thing, and I admit I have no idea what I am doing when it comes to contacts, I am training them they way I think I should, and what seems logical to me. That was our first day doing 2o2o, also with a new command. Getting her to stop was very hard :x.

Thank you for your comments, I understand that if it does come down to the fact you all believe I am beyond help, then I will seek out a trainer. But for me, this is just very important.

Diane

[adojrts]

Diane,
It's not that you are beyond help and I hope you don't think I was being too hard.
I teach agility and I often have people come that have started at home or some place else and the contacts are often a little messed up lol.

How did you teach your dog to target? Did you teach it away from the contact equipment or a plank first or did you put it at the bottom?
Let me know and we can help.
Look at what I posted from my notes and watch your video, you will see what I am talking about. Once you become aware of this kind of stuff, then you can fix it. That is why having someone watch you train that has experience can be such a benefit.

Lynn

[BostonBanker]

I am not sure how else I am supposed to train contact...lol. To be honest, thats why I am looking for direction, no one on youtube has given me much advice on how to train effectively.

So you will seek help from random people on YouTube, but not from an actual qualified instructor? If you really don't want to put your dog in a class, what about asking if you can "audit" some foundation agility classes? It might help you figure out exercises and such, and if you want to train professionally, would probably be extremely helpful. Our classes always include a lot of learning theory discussion and back-and-forth brainstorming. I love that sort of stuff, and it often helps clarify things for me. Plus it has resulted in some really good friendships. Even if you don't put your dog in the class, I bet you would get a ton out of it, at a fraction of the price.

I saw some of the same stuff in your video as Ado, although not nearly as much. The big thing that stood out to me as the owner of a relatively low-drive dog was that you weren't ever really rewarding the contact; the dog either got an extremely short chance to "grab" the toy or, more often, had to continue on to a jump before being rewarded. I also wouldn't reward out of your hand as much. I did that a lot with Meg, and the end result was her looking up at me and swinging her butt of the plank (this was when we weren't doing any actual equipment, just plank and stair work). You could mark the behavior with a clicker or word, and then throw the reward out in front of the obstacle to keep your dog driving (and looking) forward.

I feel like I'm being a pest about the whole class thing, so I promise this is the last I will mention of it! I've altered my plan for teaching contacts three main times (from teaching a down on the obstacle, to running, to 2o2o). My techinques for training each one changed over time as well. I've seen how hard that was for her to handle. Even with everything I did to keep it simple and have a really high rate of reinforcement, she would often give me a behavior that she used to get rewarded for, then get frustrated when it didn't earn her a reward. And then she would start shutting down. I just feel that almost all dogs have a limit to the amount of re-training they can take before they just don't want to play anymore. I wish wish wish that I had started contacts correctly right from the start. It would have saved my dog a lot of confusion and frustration. I guess I just don't understand the attitude of trying by yourself "until you are beyond help" and then trying to get help. Why not save your dog the frustration and make sure you are taking the right path right from the start? Getting help isn't going to ruin your chances of becoming a professional trainer - it is going to help it.

Please don't take this personally - it isn't meant to offend. I'm just trying to offer my advice from someone who is in a fairly similar place as you.

[adojrts]

Originally Posted by BostonBanker

So you will seek help from random people on YouTube, but not from an actual qualified instructor? If you really don't want to put your dog in a class, what about asking if you can "audit" some foundation agility classes? It might help you figure out exercises and such, and if you want to train professionally, would probably be extremely helpful. Our classes always include a lot of learning theory discussion and back-and-forth brainstorming. I love that sort of stuff, and it often helps clarify things for me. Plus it has resulted in some really good friendships. Even if you don't put your dog in the class, I bet you would get a ton out of it, at a fraction of the price.

I saw some of the same stuff in your video as Ado, although not nearly as much. The big thing that stood out to me as the owner of a relatively low-drive dog was that you weren't ever really rewarding the contact; the dog either got an extremely short chance to "grab" the toy or, more often, had to continue on to a jump before being rewarded. I also wouldn't reward out of your hand as much. I did that a lot with Meg, and the end result was her looking up at me and swinging her butt of the plank (this was when we weren't doing any actual equipment, just plank and stair work). You could mark the behavior with a clicker or word, and then throw the reward out in front of the obstacle to keep your dog driving (and looking) forward.

I feel like I'm being a pest about the whole class thing, so I promise this is the last I will mention of it! I've altered my plan for teaching contacts three main times (from teaching a down on the obstacle, to running, to 2o2o). My techinques for training each one changed over time as well. I've seen how hard that was for her to handle. Even with everything I did to keep it simple and have a really high rate of reinforcement, she would often give me a behavior that she used to get rewarded for, then get frustrated when it didn't earn her a reward. And then she would start shutting down. I just feel that almost all dogs have a limit to the amount of re-training they can take before they just don't want to play anymore. I wish wish wish that I had started contacts correctly right from the start. It would have saved my dog a lot of confusion and frustration. I guess I just don't understand the attitude of trying by yourself "until you are beyond help" and then trying to get help. Why not save your dog the frustration and make sure you are taking the right path right from the start? Getting help isn't going to ruin your chances of becoming a professional trainer - it is going to help it.

Please don't take this personally - it isn't meant to offend. I'm just trying to offer my advice from someone who is in a fairly similar place as you.

BB, well said awesome advice on auditing !!!