Having serious recall/leashing issues

[Southpaw]

This has been a problem for... well, forever, but I think it was easier for me to excuse when Juno was younger because it was just a matter of her not knowing what I wanted. But now she's 7 months old and I feel like she should be obeying me more and behaving better... or maybe she's not obeying me because she's 7 months old. lol.

But anyway. Her recall is horrible and I just don't know what to do about it. During training sessions she's fine and she listens. We've worked in the house, in the backyard, in the front yard (which for her is more distracting), and occasionally when we've went walking through the woods. The biggest problem is when I'm trying to leave the dog park, it's such a hassle to get her to come with me... and even more of a hassle to grab her collar and get the leash on. I know the dog park is like, the epitome of distracting situations, but I'm so clueless on how I can train her to listen in that environment. I can't exactly recreate the environment and I know bringing treats inside a dog park is a no-no, so I don't know what to do to work her up to that level of distraction?

The other problem I briefly mentioned, I can't grab her to put her leash on. She'll stop and then when I go to approach her, she takes off. I can't call her to me because she won't listen. Or even if she does come up to me, she'll still take off if I reach out to her. It's aggravating as heck because a few times I've had to flag down a stranger and ask them if they can call her over and grab her collar because 99% of the time she has no problem approaching other people. Is this just something I have to work on simultaneously with the recall? As in, allowing me to grab the collar just becomes part of the recall and she doesn't get rewarded unless I can do that? Or are there other ways?

I'm just so lost and this is something I really, really need to get under control.

[lizzybeth727]

Why can't you bring treats in the dog park? As long as you don't, you know, scatter them all over the ground, or hand them out to random dogs, or leave the bag sitting out where any dog can get to them, or anything else obviously against common sense.... I don't understand why you can't bring a few treats to use for your dog, if you keep them in your pocket or purse or something.

Because, why in the world should she come to you when she's in the dog park? What's in it for her? It's so nice to think that our dogs should do things because we ask them to and because they're supposed to be obedient, but in THEIR mind they're doing what works for THEM. She obviously has figured out that coming to you in a training session pays off, and staying away from you in the dog park also pays off.

[BullMastiffMama]

Hmm... I'm working on recall issues as well, and my first inclination is not to call Capone for things like that. Leaving the dogpark is the ultimate anti-fun.

I can't think of a wrangling method offhand, though... I know chasing her down is a hell of a hassle. Been there! I'll think on it some more, but I'm stuck at the moment. Sorry.

[BullMastiffMama]

Originally Posted by lizzybeth727

Why can't you bring treats in the dog park? As long as you don't, you know, scatter them all over the ground, or hand them out to random dogs, or leave the bag sitting out where any dog can get to them, or anything else obviously against common sense.... I don't understand why you can't bring a few treats to use for your dog, if you keep them in your pocket or purse or something.

If her dog park is like the one around here, treats or food of any kind is prohibited. Is she toy-driven? Maybe she likes something small and squeaky you could stow in your pocket or a bag? (You might have every dog in the park rush you! )

[lizzybeth727]

See, to me, toys are worse in the dog park than treats are. I can give my dog a treat so quickly that no other dogs would even notice, but if I give her a squeaky toy? I wouldn't even want to know what would happen.

[Zoom]

Make a game out of grabbing her collar at the dog-park...she can get an extra special treat then, but only when you have your hand on her collar. Get her to come to you a few times through out, grab, praise, treat and release. She's learned that getting her collar grabbed means the fun is ending, which sucks for her. Make it as fun as you can for her to come to you and then by releasing her you're showing that the fun doesn't have to end immediately upon having her collar grabbed. I had to do this with my ex-roomie's English Setter, who was notorious for staying as far out of reach as caninely possible to avoid having to stop running--and this was an 80+ acre park. By doing the above, I got her to slowly start checking in more often, so that when we were ready to leave, it was easier to catch her.

She is also 7 months old and in the middle of teen-age spazzing, but this is also the prime-time to reinforce what your rules and expectations are.

[Doberluv]

Remember how punishment will tend to stop a behavior. And reinforcement will increase a behavior. You have been inadvertantly punishing her for coming or for letting you grab her collar, so she has learned to avoid it at all costs. The recall is non-existent because she has been punished. (by mistake, I know)

At the dog park, for the time being, I recommend you keep her on a long line. Do not ever call her to come until she has become reliable. In other words, do not use your cue word yet. You need treats or whatever she highly values to get a really good recall. Practice somewhere else if you aren't allowed to have treats at the dog park. In fact, practicing in a less distracting area is a must. Walk her someplace else for a while. Practice in your yard where it's less distracting. You always, always train things in low distraction areas first and gradually add distractions as she becomes proficient with the previous level. Distractions are a whole other ball game to a dog. No one can get any reliability with anything if he/she has no skill level to begin with. Here, the dog is thrust into a high distraction area. Distractions are advanced training. There are way too many competing motivators out there for her now. You need to be the best and most interesting thing to her. So, you start out where she is most likely to succeed and only very gradually raise the degree of difficulty. That's the same thing with everyone in everything. You don't become an Olympic star without practicing at easier levels first.

Everytime she comes to you on her own, including in the house, make sure something fantastic happens. Lots of attention, high value treats. For meal time, don't just put the bowl down. Use some of it as a reinforcer for her coming to you....handfuls intead of the entire thing. When she's ALREADY coming to you, inject your cue word and give her food. Whenever possible, for treats for the recall, use real meat; chicken, steak, hot dogs, liver treats. (tiny, pea sized pieces though so she doesn't get fat. All she needs is a token)

When she comes to you out in your yard or inside, grab the collar, snap on the leash, confine her for just a few seconds, praise, treat and let her go back to what she was doing. Out in the yard, run the other way with a toy, make squeeky, fun noises, get her to play chase, hide behind a bush and make funny noises...dogs love finding their owner...when she is right there in front of you, grab her collar, treat and praise big time and let her go again....back to what she wants to do.

When the fun time is over and you have to go inside, don't end the fun abruptly. Play with her for a few minutes, give her treats, rub her belly. Let her know that coming to you is the best thing ever....every time. You can even play hide and seek in the house on a rainy day. Hide in a closet or behind a door and make weird noises (NOT YOUR CUE WORD). Have a treat ready in your hand. When she finds you, just as she's arriving, tell her "Come" or whatever word you are going to have as your cue. Grab her collar and give her a treat and fun praise. It takes time for her to associate or pair the cue word and the act of coming. So the more games and things you do where you can use your cue word, the better she'll learn it. The point though, is to not use it as an elicitor yet. Just tie it together with the actual act of coming.

Be consistent. DO NOT USE YOUR CUE WORD TO COME for a long time now UNLESS she is already coming to you and you're positive you'll be able to get hold of her collar. Better yet, wait until the first instant you touch her collar. If she bolts the other way after you've said, "come," she just learned that come means to run away or she's learned that come means nothing. Do not mess up with this!

Never punish her for coming or with anything associated with coming to you. Not out of anger, not inadvertantly...by doing some awful thing when she comes, like ending the fun, clipping nails or giving a bath....don't do anything that she doesn't love when she comes to you.

Don't expect her to come if there are competing motivators. Don't even try to get her to come if you're not reasonably sure she will. Not now...not until she has had a strong history of success in easier contexts. This is why I'd use a long line in the dog park for the time being.

Eventually, once she has had a long history of being reinforced highly for coming, you will notice that you can call her away from competing motivators. But that's down the road a ways. It can take months and months or more and very good practices in training to develop a solid recall. It does not happen over night. And yes, the age can interfer but that's why you need to beef up the training at this time. Do things right and consistently and one day, you should expect to have a very good recall on your dog.

[Southpaw]

Originally Posted by Zoom

Get her to come to you a few times through out, grab, praise, treat and release. She's learned that getting her collar grabbed means the fun is ending, which sucks for her.

Yeah that's the thing, since she usually won't come to me, when she DOES finally come, I'm taking advantage of it and leaving lol.

I've just always been hesitant of bringing treats with because I don't want a pack of dogs surrounding me haha... obviously I'd be discreet about it but the dogs will know if I have hot dogs. Maybe I'll try it though.

Thanks for the help

[release the hounds]

First off, Dober is right. You've taught your dog that coming to you is not fun, and getting the collar grabbed is even less fun. You're setting yourself up to fail every time you go to the dog park and go thru this routine and teaching your dog what you don't want.

A dog that won't recall off anything at any time does not get off leash privileges. Keep a long line on and like someone said, make grabbing the collar something fun. I went thru a similiar issue with a dog for training. Training exercises was easy, but when I took her swimming the first time, it took her exactly 2 times to learn that when I reached for the collar game time was over and when I did that, even having another toy didn't get her. She fell for that already.

finally I wouldn't throw the other toy into the water till she let me grab her collar, so she never knew what collar grab was ending the fun. and then I didn't end it, i just continued playin on land back to our campsite.

you need to do the same, no off leash, do NOT end play time everytime you take the toy or grab the leash, make that the cue to start more fun stuff, and continue play outside the park, near the car etc.

This problem is all created by you, we're always training our dogs, just not always what we think we are.

[Doberluv]

do NOT end play time everytime you take the toy or grab the leash, make that the cue to start more fun stuff,

Exactly.

Yeah that's the thing, since she usually won't come to me, when she DOES finally come, I'm taking advantage of it and leaving lol.

See....you punished her for coming. (inadvertantly, yes. But nevertheless, the affect was punishment and that's what has prevented her learning to come) The good news is... you can turn this around and she can develop a super recall.


With my dogs, I did let them have off leash privilges in a safe area. BUT....I did not call them to come, using my cue word to try and get them to come until they were coming to me regularly. And first, I had to create the association between the cue word and the act of coming. If you use the cue word too soon, and your dog doesn't come, she'll miss the association. I could get them to come by being really a fun person. But, if you're dog isn't coming to you at all, then you better keep her on a long line for the time being.

Once it has been proven to her...for a long time, that everytime she comes to you, stupendously tasty treats are dispensed and you turn into the most fun she's ever had....and she starts coming to you regularly, then you can start using your cue...but ONLY when she's already coming. Pair those together. Then, after a long time of that, try using it as an elicitor, but have the long line on her just in case you need to reel her in. I don't recommend reeling her in as a regular practice. It's better if she chooses to come. Dogs on long lines know they have no choice and will come to you. That just teaches them to come when they have to anyway...not a big accomplishment. lol. Work so you can get to the point where she wants to come to you.

Inside the house is a perfect place to capture this behavior. Doesn't she come to you when you're just chillin on the couch...for an ear rub or a little attention? Does she come to you to see what you're doing when you're in another room? If you're fixing dinner, does she come to watch? (of course, you may not want to reinforce him for snooping around when you're trying to get your food) But anytime she comes to you is a perfect opportunity to reinforce that by offering a treat or a really nice belly rub. Make sure it's something SHE loves a lot. Does she like to go for car rides? On your way to the car, if you're ahead of her and when she's already headed that way for sure, go ahead and give her your cue word and reinforce. The reinforcer will be a treat plus the car ride. Heavily reinforce her for now...every time she comes. Later, you can spread that out, but not while she's learning.