High Protein and Puppies

[Bailey08]

My dog was on Orijen to no ill effect. I was comfortable with it. I did actually put him on Large Breed since we weren't sure how big he was going to get (turned out to be unnecessary, lol).

He's now on raw and I will start any future pups/dogs on raw as soon as they come to me and skip kibble altogether.

[Dekka]

Thats not true Xpeanx..

I have posted this before.

Kibble the values are % dry volume So for example take a chicken breast, its about 19% protein. But if you dry that chicken breast so that it is the same moisture content as kibble its now ~50% protein.

A raw diet is going to be the same protein level if you were to compare dry weight to dry weight as orijen/evo etc.

So a kibble that is ~25% protein by volume is only 1/2 that of raw.

And per bite is only going to matter if you don't let them drink.. if you let your pup drink then it balances out to be about 20% protien.

[xpaeanx]

I think your kinda making the same argument....

They'll drink water after, so by that point they've already eaten enough kibble to equal 2x the amount they should have eaten.

I put water in my dogs kibble and let it bloat, I end up putting in way less than my family does with their dogs that they feed dry kibble.
So here, if we were feeding evo, my dogs would be eating 20% protein per bite and my family's eating 40%. What's bad is that they'll end up eating more kibble than they need bc of the volume size.

[Brandyb]

Thanks for all the replies guys!!
When ever I've had a large breed pup, we've discontinued puppy food early, and gone right to adult food as we've been told by a dog nutritionist (years ago) that puppy food carbs and such are too high, and in large breeds will promote quicker growth, which you don't want.
Now that being said, the dog in question is a mid-size mix...I've only been feeding Brandy the high protein for just about a year now, great results with coat and skin as well as energy, however, she is 7, not a pup, so I'm still not sure what the implications are with high protein on a pup. So many differing opinions, it's hard to decide. My other dog is on a mid-range protein diet (beef formula solid gold) and has done well on that. My preference is the Orijen, which is what I've suggest to my friend, however, I'd hate to have ill effects from protein being too high.
I'm kind of clueless with the comparison of raw to high protein kibble. I've heard you have to calculate for the loss of protein in regards to water weight, but not really sure what that means.
Can anyone point me to a site I can research on??
Thanks guys!!

[Dekka]

No it doesn't work that way...

If you give your dog a kibble that is 25% protein (aside from the fact that means there is 75% other stuff) its not the same as raw... you add water to that and it dilutes it to about the the same protein level as grass (I am not kidding!)

If you calculate the amount of dry matter it would take to feed your dog and keep them at a healthy weight if you go raw or go orijen there is no real difference (calories and protein% wise) But if you were to try to get that level of protein with a typical kibble you would end up with a fat dog.

[Dekka]

Originally Posted by Brandyb

I'm kind of clueless with the comparison of raw to high protein kibble. I've heard you have to calculate for the loss of protein in regards to water weight, but not really sure what that means.
Can anyone point me to a site I can research on??
Thanks guys!!

I have never found a website. I have emailed dog food companies directly (like iams etc) to get what their values mean. Then I have looked up protein sources by dry weight on the internet etc.. and put my own comparisons together.

I too like orijen. And I too see a larger issue with excess carbs causing growth spurts than protein.. but that is just speculation. The comparison between dry weights and protein levels is not.

[xpaeanx]

.... Dekka I think you're missing the point I'm making.

In this situation we're only feeding evo which we'll say is 40% protein.

Cardi A & B start out eating 1/2 scoop raw every day.


Cardi A is then fed 1/2 scoop dry kibble and eats it all in a matter of minutes

Cardi B is then fed 1/4 scoop dry kibble and eats it all in a matter of minutes

when Cardi A drinks water he ends up with 1 full scoop of food in his belly. Cardi B ends up with 1/2 scoop of food in his belly after drinking water.


So Cardi A's problem was that he ate enough for 2 days in one sitting. If he was fed a 20% kibble that would have been fine bc he would have just pooped out the filler instead of growing to fast from eating twice the amount he should have.

So in the end the concern it seems is just of the ability to over feed your dog with a kibble like evo.

Brandy, threads around here always get side tracked!

[xpaeanx]

Oh and dekka, I'm actually all for raw! I was feeding evo bc raw got to be too much storage wise. I only recently switched to a lower protein bc muff is being picky.

[Dekka]

but volume is irrelevant as you wouldn't feed the same volume of food, and just add water to the puppy's food then.

The point is if you are feeding a low protein kibble there is no way you can balance it up.

And I don't think a dog can 'grow faster' than is genetically programed to do so by feeding excess protein for a meal or two. Now high protein kibbles ARE often high calories and that could be a problem for a growing dog, if they are fed in excess. (excess weight has been linked to growth plate problems in various species)

[adojrts]

Originally Posted by Brandyb

Thanks for all the replies guys!!
When ever I've had a large breed pup, we've discontinued puppy food early, and gone right to adult food as we've been told by a dog nutritionist (years ago) that puppy food carbs and such are too high, and in large breeds will promote quicker growth, which you don't want.
Now that being said, the dog in question is a mid-size mix...I've only been feeding Brandy the high protein for just about a year now, great results with coat and skin as well as energy, however, she is 7, not a pup, so I'm still not sure what the implications are with high protein on a pup. So many differing opinions, it's hard to decide. My other dog is on a mid-range protein diet (beef formula solid gold) and has done well on that. My preference is the Orijen, which is what I've suggest to my friend, however, I'd hate to have ill effects from protein being too high.
I'm kind of clueless with the comparison of raw to high protein kibble. I've heard you have to calculate for the loss of protein in regards to water weight, but not really sure what that means.
Can anyone point me to a site I can research on??
Thanks guys!!

Julie,

I agree with what you stated, I too have spoken to nutritionists along with very knowledgable breeders that I know..........they all strongly recommend a high quality adult food instead of a puppy food past 2 -2 1/2 months of age. At this time, I am already introducing the adult food to my pups at 9 wks to switch them over. New owners will be given both foods and recommended to continue with that program. The topic has been discussed many times at the dinners I have been to during trials (at the U.S trials mainly) plus it is easy to see a pup with it.

I did a quick search, sadly there isn't much but here a quote from someone posting about their lab puppies and Epiphysitis.

"Has anyone ever heard of this term? We're told by our vet that Boiler has 'nutritional epiphysitis both front legs, distal radius and ulna'. In other words, he has grown too fast and now has these protruding bones on his front legs, as you can see from the picture.
I've fed him Innova Regular Puppy from the time he was 9 weeks old up until he was 14 weeks. He did GREAT on the food as it relates to coat (no itching or allergies and coat is shiny & soft), no poop issues. I read up on the different food choices before I decided to go with Innova Puppy. It seemed that on the whole, that would be the best choice........'

I doubt it was just Innova, many breeders that I know have had problems and switched to an adult food quickly, regardless of the brand name.