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  #41  
Old 05-07-2009, 01:39 PM
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Oh its EASY to do ... I have seen it happen. You see it on those popular tv shows all the time. Shutting down a dog and calling it trained is common in 'pet' owners. Not all take it to the extreme of making the dog completely shut down..
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  #42  
Old 05-07-2009, 04:55 PM
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I know what the topic is Dekka. THe point was is it a happy dog or not because it does not respond. I Think the chances are more that it is a calm dog that doesn't care then a shut down dog. I know it can be done too...i have one that was shut up like a clam but i don't think it is as common as naturally calm dogs. THat was why i wrote what i wrote.
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  #43  
Old 05-07-2009, 05:01 PM
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Its pretty common to have horribly shut down dogs. Its not a 'choice' the dog makes. You can shut down a hyper dog as easily as a calm dog (often MORE easily as they are more reactive to the 'harshness'. If you know the topic then I am very confused as to what you are saying...
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  #44  
Old 05-07-2009, 05:06 PM
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YOu would have to see the dog over a period of time to know for sure. I doubt in this world of more untrained then trained out there in the pet world that the higher percent is shut down dogs from bad handlers. YOU don't know and neither do i unless you could see the dog from more then a paragraph.
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  #45  
Old 05-07-2009, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smkie View Post
YOu would have to see the dog over a period of time to know for sure. I doubt in this world of more untrained then trained out there in the pet world that the higher percent is shut down dogs from bad handlers. YOU don't know and neither do i unless you could see the dog from more then a paragraph.
I disagree.

A shut down dog is very different from a naturally calm dog. A shut down dog is very stressed and exhibits a number of signs of stress that a calm dog doesn't.

There are a lot of owners who do shut their dogs down. Often because they haven't taken a training class and don't know how to deal with problem behaviors, so they get angry with the dog and end up yelling, hitting, using collar corrections, etc. Some shut down their dog because they actually believe in those training methods.
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  #46  
Old 05-07-2009, 05:19 PM
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I don't feel that your dog has to be calm at all times to be considered a "trained" dog. My dogs are extremely excited and involved when we're doing Obedience/Agility/Flyball training, but they are NOT out of control, they focus their excitement into the activity they've been trained to do.

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I was just wondering as it seems that some people don't like to have excited dogs. I was just wondering what you guys thought on the concept.
Honestly, I am sooooooo annoyed by people whose dogs are given no boundaries and are in an excited state constantly. Dogs who non-stop harass me when we're sitting around calmly, throw toys at me, and jump on me, are definitely not my favorite dogs. I definitely don't want my dogs to be excited at all times. They know when it's time to chill out, and when it's time to get excited. At first, I had to teach them, but now it's second nature. To me, a dog who is always excited and who cannot turn off is just as unhealthy as a dog who is shut down at all times. There is a medium in there.

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Over training for the dog to not want to do anything is wrong.
I agree with Dekka. What you're talking about is NOT training, it's punishment. Punishment weakens a behavior (such as excitability) because a negative condition is experienced as a consequence of the behavior.

The worst that I could imagine a dog could get from "over" positive reinforcement training/conditioning is that the dog would look to their owner for direction constantly, but they would look to them happily and eagerly, not like a lifeless corpse.
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  #47  
Old 05-07-2009, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corgipower View Post
Some shut down their dog because they actually believe in those training methods.
Thank you, Cesar Millan!

I see more shut down dogs than well-adjusted dogs these days, for sure. At the dog park, I often see people alpha-rolling and tsssing their frightened dogs, who in turn slink around the dog park peeing all over themselves. Calm/submissive, for sure. The fact is, people do want something that is instant, and like Dekka said, it takes very little to shut down a dog... while it could take possibly years to train a dog to be well-adjusted, obedient and calm. Many people feel that it is easier and more sensible to punish everything they dislike rather than teach the dog what they want it to do, creating a dog who is in constant fear of punishment and shuts down. It would probably take one alpha roll to shut Gonzo down, he turns into a puddle of goo at the word "no".
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  #48  
Old 05-07-2009, 05:41 PM
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Yes its simple to see which it is... all it take is the most basic of understanding of dog body postures/language.
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  #49  
Old 05-07-2009, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
The dog is TRAINED to be disinterested or really calm.

Lets use Beagles as an example. They (well at least mine) are usually happy go lucky kind of dogs. Just say someone trained them to be disinterested in things that would normally make them happy and at least a little excited.
Disinterested isn't the same as calm.

Take a malinois to protection training or a corgi to herding and you can train calmness, but they won't be disinterested.

I can have Tyr sit and stay while a helper is in front of him. It's the ultimate proofing, and it takes time to build, but he is quite calm. Until he's sent.

The first time Ares saw sheep - Ares, who was competing in obedience at the time - he had no clue what "down" meant. All his obedience went out the window. Again, over time, he learned to lie down in the pen.

It's the ultimate level of proofing. It's also the ultimate reward. Down and you get to go play with sheep.

But I wouldn't ever want to make them disinterested in such things.
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  #50  
Old 05-07-2009, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wcladymacbeth View Post
I think.... being calm ALL the time is not in a dog's nature, so regardless of how the training is done, it can't be good. I wouldn't want to train a dog to NEVER get excited. That would be mean... and boring.
I had a calm dog, he was my heart dog, and he was not in the least boring. His joy was expressed in a different way from annoying behavior.maybe you would not have picked up on it...his quiet joy and this WAS his nature all the time and i have met others. I bet Pit is far from boring as well.
That is what i am talking about. Victor when he is in a down stay and expected to behave in the beginning would shiver and give big ol sad abused deprived eyes because he wasn't being allowed to bounce off the walls. HE doens't do it now but in the beginning down stay quiet was the hardest thing in the world for him to do. Didn't mean that he wasn't thrilled 5 minutes later about something else. WE have not been given enough info to know if this dog is a calm dog or a shut down dog. I agree shut down dogs exist, i have seen my fair share of abuse towards dogs especially in the area of trainers. No disagreeing with you there. Only that this could be a calm dog...that calm dogs do exist and they do react with disinterest in people coming over.

I see more untrained then trained. Dogs that rule the house and are obnoxious. A trained one in our area is rare. THey don't potty on the floor and the know to sit. BUt they bark and are obnoxious, jump up the legs of company and their owners stand there as if there was nothing they could do.
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