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Old 04-13-2009, 09:58 PM
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Default Upset Tummy due to Unbalanced Raw Diet?

Well, it's about a month and a half after Hap' has started a raw diet.

Initially his stools were pretty compact and super firm, but lately(or more than, on and off for the past two weeks!) he has had some serious diarrhea. I definitely know I should have been on this earlier(2-3 weeks!), but sometimes life does not permit things as such. As he is acting absolutely average aside from his stools, I was going to schedule him with a raw savvy vet this week(if I can find one!), but I'm reconsidering depending on what kind of help I can get here.
(As a side note, I'd like to get him a check-up with a raw-informed vet eventually, regardless-)


Basically, I feel as though I know what the issue is. I purchased a serious amount of Chicken-backs to start. Happy gets a serving of 1.2 lbs. a day, and a few ounces of organs at the beginning and the end of the week. They are all pretty meaty chicken backs. Occasionally I've also purchased some other miscellaneous meat for him to try during the week. But, I feel as though because there has been a lack of variety, however subtle, his system perhaps isn't functioning as expected? Also, maybe I should be feeding him small amounts of organ every other day instead of "bulk" amounts at two separated times a week?

This month I thought I would purchase half a month's supply of chicken, and then introduce variety(quail, turkey, duck, beef, pork, fish..) Maybe something like turkey for half of a day's meal, then chicken, and carry on that way for the rest of the week, substituting something else?

If anything, any advice will be appreciated!
I also always appreciate any literature references(online or off) on the subject of raw diets.

Also, does anybody supplement with veggies, or other diet supplements?
How and why?
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Old 04-13-2009, 10:48 PM
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Are they also very fatty chicken backs; lots of skin will cause diarrhea due to fat content.

Organ meats will also cause diarrhea; but I don't know the amount you are feeding is doing it.

There is a raw feeding group on yahoo that's pretty good.
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Old 04-13-2009, 10:52 PM
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Old 04-13-2009, 10:58 PM
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Toss in a soup bone. Depending on how fatty or meaty the food is, there is just nothing solid to collect. Apparently some wolves would have constant diarrhea except for all the hair they ingest.

Try adding some filler or a few extra soft chewing bones.

(and where did you get your chicken backs?)
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Old 04-13-2009, 11:29 PM
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Oooh, they could be too fatty, hm..

Also, I'm a member of the Yahoo! Raw Group
(And thank you Izzy! I will probably cross-post sometime)

And I will try some filler- that sounds like what he might need

Also, I get my chicken-backs from Willamette Valley Meats If you buy them in a bulk package of 20 lbs., they're about 70 cents a pound. 60 for 40 lbs.

If you join this WAzzuOR_BARF : Washington/Oregon BARF Yahoo! Group, you can search in their files for an entire list of their items and prices.
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Old 04-14-2009, 12:48 AM
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If the chicken backs are real fatty, I might be inclined to think that they are the culprit. But are you only feeding chicken backs with a little bit of organ? That would be really unbalanced - aside from the fat, that is a lot of bone too. While it's good to stick to one protein when starting out, it's best to feed all parts of said protein - in your case I would mix the backs in with parts of a whole chicken. Even meaty chicken backs don't really provide that much meat when you look at how much bone is in them, so I would definitely throw other meatier chicken parts into the mix like quarters, breast pieces, non-bone meals and organs. I am not sure what school of thought you subscribe to, but personally I prefer prey model feeding - my meals usually consist of 80% meat/10% bone/10% organ...
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Old 04-14-2009, 07:12 AM
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Boxmein... see I disagree with 80% meat/10% bone/10% organ... is a prey model. If you have ever met (or dissected) a wild rabbit, groundhog, deer etc.. they are not even close to that much meat (% wise) Domestic animals 'maybe' but that includes the torso bones...


For example a deer weighing 160 pounds will be 125 pounds when field dressed (organs and skin removed) That is 78% of the deer and you have bones in there...

Quote:
Meat Yields (In Pounds)

Animal Weight* Meat Waste %Meat
Lamb** 50 40 10 80%
Hog 240 189 51 79%
Black Angus 600 438 162 73%
Holstein Steer 900 513 387 57%
Mature Buck 180 72 108 40%
Now this includes bones. Notice how wild game has less meat? A prey model diet would mimic prey.. not domestic animals. But even so that % is for whole carcass which is less than field dressed. (no organs skin or head)

Quote:
Let's say a hunter kills a mature buck, and it weighs 165 pounds field-dressed. Using the above equation, we estimate its carcass will weigh 124 pounds, and it will ideally yield 83.08 pounds of boneless meat. The deer's realistic meat yield is about 58.15 pounds.
-DEER & DEERHUNTING Magazine

So assuming the live weight of the deer was 211 pounds (using the typical calculation to find the live weight from the FD weight) and you get about 60 pounds of boneless meat...

that gives you a percentage of 28 percent meat. Even if you rounded that up to 30% you are still a LONG way from 80%

I do feed a lot of chicken backs, and turkey necks.. the necks seem to have more meat. Try adding a little ground beef if he tolerates beef well. Its leaner and will bump up the meat content. (though I don't go anywhere near 80%)

Last edited by Dekka; 04-14-2009 at 07:41 AM. Reason: fixing quote thingies.. and they aren't cooperating!
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Old 04-14-2009, 09:04 AM
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2 words:

Digestive Enhancer!! I love the ones from Nature's Farmacy - Originators of DOGZYMES Products

Also agree with Dekka in post 7.
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Old 04-14-2009, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
Boxmein... see I disagree with 80% meat/10% bone/10% organ... is a prey model. If you have ever met (or dissected) a wild rabbit, groundhog, deer etc.. they are not even close to that much meat (% wise) Domestic animals 'maybe' but that includes the torso bones...


For example a deer weighing 160 pounds will be 125 pounds when field dressed (organs and skin removed) That is 78% of the deer and you have bones in there...


Now this includes bones. Notice how wild game has less meat? A prey model diet would mimic prey.. not domestic animals. But even so that % is for whole carcass which is less than field dressed. (no organs skin or head)

-DEER & DEERHUNTING Magazine

So assuming the live weight of the deer was 211 pounds (using the typical calculation to find the live weight from the FD weight) and you get about 60 pounds of boneless meat...

that gives you a percentage of 28 percent meat. Even if you rounded that up to 30% you are still a LONG way from 80%

I do feed a lot of chicken backs, and turkey necks.. the necks seem to have more meat. Try adding a little ground beef if he tolerates beef well. Its leaner and will bump up the meat content. (though I don't go anywhere near 80%)
Interesting Dekka, thanks for the breakdown. That makes me curious because any of the prey model info I've found has always described the ratio to be at 80/10/10. Now these are chickens and farm raised rabbits that I feed, which have more meat on them than if they were in the wild. Maybe that's were the ratio is a little bit off?
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Last edited by BoxMeIn21; 04-14-2009 at 10:51 AM. Reason: Holy run-on sentence...
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Old 04-14-2009, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
Boxmein... see I disagree with 80% meat/10% bone/10% organ... is a prey model. If you have ever met (or dissected) a wild rabbit, groundhog, deer etc.. they are not even close to that much meat (% wise) Domestic animals 'maybe' but that includes the torso bones...


For example a deer weighing 160 pounds will be 125 pounds when field dressed (organs and skin removed) That is 78% of the deer and you have bones in there...


Now this includes bones. Notice how wild game has less meat? A prey model diet would mimic prey.. not domestic animals. But even so that % is for whole carcass which is less than field dressed. (no organs skin or head)

-DEER & DEERHUNTING Magazine

So assuming the live weight of the deer was 211 pounds (using the typical calculation to find the live weight from the FD weight) and you get about 60 pounds of boneless meat...

that gives you a percentage of 28 percent meat. Even if you rounded that up to 30% you are still a LONG way from 80%

I do feed a lot of chicken backs, and turkey necks.. the necks seem to have more meat. Try adding a little ground beef if he tolerates beef well. Its leaner and will bump up the meat content. (though I don't go anywhere near 80%)
That's interesting information. Thanks.
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