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  #31  
Old 04-11-2009, 08:27 AM
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adojrts adojrts is offline
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Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
So... what is the purpose of the APA? I mean, it just doesn't seem necessary at all. Maybe I'm missing something...
I think the idea of the APA was started with the intent of protecting the 'purebred' but like many things they fell short. To truely do their job (the APA), they would have demanded that all animals be tested for the various genetic issues and if a animal was effected with such a serious fault, that they (the APA) had the right to pull the dogs breeding rights and its papers being moved to limited. They would also have inspections of the various species to br classified at different levels and as to whether they should be breeding stock, as they do in Germany. In short taking the decisions away from the breeder/clubs/kennel club and be the 'breeding police'. Whether it stopped mills and byb's who known, but it could possibly help if done that way.
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  #32  
Old 04-11-2009, 11:43 AM
AGonzalez AGonzalez is offline
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It's good information, and I'm glad it was taken in the intent it was meant. I was very curious what keeps someone from feeling like Tjedt in her thread and calling the law into it with the breeder.
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  #33  
Old 04-11-2009, 01:21 PM
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I would like to double-check that I have this right... sorry for all the questions. I think this is really interesting and I want to make sure I understand!
A JRT is not technically born with papers. After a year, you apply and he is evaluated to the breed standard. If he matches the breed standard, he can be registered... if he does NOT match the breed standard, he can be recorded.
Does a dog have to be s/n'd to be recorded..?

And, say I have two JRTs that are neither registered nor recorded, and I breed them. If the dogs are still within standard, can they be registered? Or in the case a dog doesn't have to be neutered to be recorded, if my recorded dog breeds, can those pups then be registered?
If I breed a JRT to (just as an example, LOL) a poodle and one of the offspring is still within JRT breed standard, he can still be registered?


I guess I'm also trying to find out if there is still attention paid to how to track and record lineage. I think it's really neat to have papers and be able to look at Auggie's grandparents and great-grandparents and THEIR grandparents, et cetera. Can you still basically do this... but is it more through individual research than a registry? Or are the papers you get essentially the same as an AKC or CKC pedigree, just... not?


Can you tell me more about how a dog is evaluated to be registered or recorded, too?

TIA, sorry I have so many questions!
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  #34  
Old 04-11-2009, 01:33 PM
PoodleMommy PoodleMommy is offline
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Very interesting thread.

I just wonder... do those of you who live in Canada, especially those who breed and therefore are subject to this... do you think the APA is a good thing? (I thknk adojrts touched on this, saying it had good intentions that fell short).

It kind of sounds to me like it protects the buyer at the expense of the breeder? is this wrong?

And sorry if this is self explanatory but you are allowed to sell any dog you want as long as you dont call it a purebred? So I can sell maltipoos and be fine but if a JRT breeder sold "purebred JRT's" they would be in trouble?

I guess I am either missing something big or failing to see the value in the APA.
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  #35  
Old 04-11-2009, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanie View Post
I would like to double-check that I have this right... sorry for all the questions. I think this is really interesting and I want to make sure I understand!
A JRT is not technically born with papers. After a year, you apply and he is evaluated to the breed standard. If he matches the breed standard, he can be registered... if he does NOT match the breed standard, he can be recorded.
Does a dog have to be s/n'd to be recorded..?
Yep you got it! And yes (generally) to the s/n.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanie View Post
And, say I have two JRTs that are neither registered nor recorded, and I breed them. If the dogs are still within standard, can they be registered? Or in the case a dog doesn't have to be neutered to be recorded, if my recorded dog breeds, can those pups then be registered?
Kinda but not really.. Take Kaiden as an example. His mom was non reg nor recorded. It cost more.. but as both his grandparents are registered and I had a copy of the stud record it was ok.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanie View Post
If I breed a JRT to (just as an example, LOL) a poodle and one of the offspring is still within JRT breed standard, he can still be registered?
Not currently.. I am sure it has happened in the past. Some lines are known to go back to other breeds. But is expressly NOT allowed now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanie View Post
I guess I'm also trying to find out if there is still attention paid to how to track and record lineage. I think it's really neat to have papers and be able to look at Auggie's grandparents and great-grandparents and THEIR grandparents, et cetera. Can you still basically do this... but is it more through individual research than a registry? Or are the papers you get essentially the same as an AKC or CKC pedigree, just... not?
The JRTCA gives you a more full pedigree than the JRTCC does. But I have Dekka's papers back 8 generations on both sides. I could likely go back further on some dogs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanie View Post
Can you tell me more about how a dog is evaluated to be registered or recorded, too?
Quote:

Application Form completed in full and signed. Fee is $25 for terrier whose parents are JRTCC or JRTCA Registered/Recorded (both sire and dam Reg/Rec), or $35 for registration with sire and/or dam not Reg/Rec with JRTCC or JRTCA.


Terrier's Name. The application shall include a first and second choice for the terrier's registered name. If the breeder of the terrier has JRTCC and/or JRTCA registered kennel name, the name will be used as the prefix for the terrier's name. If the first choice name (combination of kennel name and owner's selected name) is already used as a JRTCC registered name then the second choice will be checked for conflict, if both names are already registered with the JRTCC then the owner will be asked to supply two more choices. Suffixes (ie: current owner's kennel name) are not included in the dog's registered name.


Six (6) Photographs, taken in colour, of the terrier standing on a level hard surface with the feet visible. The terrier must be at least one year of age. The photographs are to be from the front, left and right sides (left and right side doubles required), and rear of terrier. The left and right doubles will be attached to the back of the Registration/Recording Certificate to act as photographic identification of terrier. The photographs must portray the terrier in a natural position (not stacked). Outdoor shots are preferable with good contrast between terrier and background. Avoid a cluttered/busy background. On back of the photograph write terrier's full name, date of photograph and terrier's age. Photographs must be signed by the Veterinarian during the completion of the Veterinarian's Certificate for Registration. (Polaroid photos are not acceptable. Four of the photographs (front, left and right sides and rear) submitted become property of JRTCC and will not be returned. The doubles of the left and right sides will be attached to and returned with the Registration/Recording Certificate)


JRTCC Health Certificate must be completed in full and signed by owner of JRT and a copy of any supporting documentation attached.
http://jrtcc.org/about/registry_form...ertificate.pdf


If the dog does not appear to meet breed standard the pics are sent off to the breeders committee for a final verdict.
The papers you get back are laminated and have two side view pics of your dog on the back.
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  #36  
Old 04-11-2009, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoodleMommy View Post
Very interesting thread.

I just wonder... do those of you who live in Canada, especially those who breed and therefore are subject to this... do you think the APA is a good thing? (I thknk adojrts touched on this, saying it had good intentions that fell short).

It kind of sounds to me like it protects the buyer at the expense of the breeder? is this wrong?

And sorry if this is self explanatory but you are allowed to sell any dog you want as long as you dont call it a purebred? So I can sell maltipoos and be fine but if a JRT breeder sold "purebred JRT's" they would be in trouble?

I guess I am either missing something big or failing to see the value in the APA.
The APA was really created for livestock. Most dog breeders likely don't know a thing about it. Unless you lived through the APA debate in the JRT world I doubt you would really know anything about it. It really does't do much. It does give the CKC a little more 'teeth' when going after breeders not giving out paperwork with their dogs. But that seems to be about it.
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  #37  
Old 04-11-2009, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanie View Post
A JRT is not technically born with papers. After a year, you apply and he is evaluated to the breed standard. If he matches the breed standard, he can be registered... if he does NOT match the breed standard, he can be recorded.
Does a dog have to be s/n'd to be recorded..?

And, say I have two JRTs that are neither registered nor recorded, and I breed them. If the dogs are still within standard, can they be registered? Or in the case a dog doesn't have to be neutered to be recorded, if my recorded dog breeds, can those pups then be registered?



I guess I'm also trying to find out if there is still attention paid to how to track and record lineage. I think it's really neat to have papers and be able to look at Auggie's grandparents and great-grandparents and THEIR grandparents, et cetera. Can you still basically do this... but is it more through individual research than a registry? Or are the papers you get essentially the same as an AKC or CKC pedigree, just... not?


Can you tell me more about how a dog is evaluated to be registered or recorded, too?

TIA, sorry I have so many questions!
Typically a dog must be spay/neutered to be Recorded, if they don't qualify for full papers. In the past there has been exceptions to the spay/neuter for recorded terriers if they are borderline on the breed standard but having said that you still have to have a signed pedigree etc. To answer your question, No you can't just take a dog and get papers on it, just because its within the breed standard and you want to breed it.
I have traced my dog's pedigrees back to at least 20 generations and could go further if I wanted to.
The JRTCA/CC/GB are legit registries, no different than any other breed club or kennel club registry. The only difference is they don't allow non breed standard dogs to be reg'd for breeding stock and a dog isn't guaranteed registration papers just because it was the product of two registered dogs. As already pointed out they must be reg'd on their own merit, as long as they have all the proper paperwork to back up the claims that it is a 'pedigreed dog'.

To quote the Founder's Effect:

The excessive use of inbreeding and line breeding on such a dog will further reduce genetic diversity. Eggleston(2000) reported on the range of genetic diversity among the AKC breeds. She constructed a continuum for all of the breeds. At one extreme she placed the Bull Terriers which had the least amount of genetic diversity. This means that they tend to be line or inbred. At the other extreme were the Jack Russell Terriers who she found to have the most amount of genetic diversity. This means their pedigrees were for the most part the result of outcross breedings. This meant that the ancestors tended to be unrelated to each other. End Quote.

Now in recent years, since they have closed the stud books to accepting outcrosses of other breeds this is quickly changing. Many of the same lines are used over and over again resulting in difficulty in outcrossing within the breed. And of course as the breed tighens down and the line breeding increases, the undesired recessive faults are also becoming more of problem in the way of genetic issues i.e PLL and Catracts.
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  #38  
Old 04-11-2009, 03:16 PM
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Dekka Dekka is online now
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LOL one thing I find interesting about the pedigrees. Dekka's pedigree is full of 'old' dogs. A lot of her ancestors were 'older' when they had the litters she came from. So even when only looking back 8 generations I am looking back to the late 70's/early 80's. 'Back in the day' it seems a lot of these dogs didn't have Kennel names. They were called "Jill, and Myrtle, and Moo, and Willie and such (not kidding lol) Now you don't have to go too far to be back in the day. Before there was a registry it was just people's records.
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  #39  
Old 04-11-2009, 06:38 PM
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Beanie Beanie is offline
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Thanks guys!! That is really helpful.
I agree with Zoom, I really like the way that sounds. It makes so much SENSE to operate that way.
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  #40  
Old 04-11-2009, 06:50 PM
PoodleMommy PoodleMommy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
The APA was really created for livestock. Most dog breeders likely don't know a thing about it. Unless you lived through the APA debate in the JRT world I doubt you would really know anything about it. It really does't do much. It does give the CKC a little more 'teeth' when going after breeders not giving out paperwork with their dogs. But that seems to be about it.
okay, that makes more sense now.

All this talk made me think it was some god like governing law.
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