CKC and the JRT question

[Renee750il]

Thanks to ACampbell for asking a really interesting question -- and to all who took the question in the spirit in which it was tendered and enlightened us all

Carry on

[LauraLeigh]

I just realized, being 4 am and all when I replied, I quoted the wrong reply of Ado's... LOL If a Mod could edit the quoted part to the response about the APA just above the one I did quote that would be huge... sorry

Just want it taken out or is there another one you want added instead?

[Renee750il]

BWUAHAHAHAAAA! Lauraleigh . . . I haven't had my coffee yet. I edited in my reply to you rather than quoting you

[Laurelin]

So... what is the purpose of the APA? I mean, it just doesn't seem necessary at all. Maybe I'm missing something...

[Dekka]

The Animal Pedigree act is designed to protect purebred animals.

The people who argued FOR JRT inclusion pointed out it would give us the rights to the JRT/PRT standard as you can't make a new breed that is just like the old.

But it would never work anyway... as the height standard alone in the JRT is not acceptable by the APA. 10-15 inches is too large a range for a small breed according to them.

[AGonzalez]

Alright, another question (puts on flame retardant material)

What keeps your puppy buyers from having buyers remorse because their purebred but not sold as purebred dog because of the legal situation doesn't fit the standard to be registered at 1 yr of age? (i.e. in the EVENT that it does not, not saying you aren't breeding to standard...let's just say genetics can be a b!tch and it happens - like with white GSD's, recessive's and all that good stuff)

For instance, say any of you that breed a dog not listed with the APA sells a dog to BillyBob Bozo, a long time friend of the family and all around good person, knowledgible etc, i.e. the perfect puppy buyer. He knows what's going on and what the registration requirements are at the 1 year of age. He knows that this puppy cannot be registered unless it fits the breed standard. You've pissed him off (or not we can do this either way) and come to find out, the puppy didn't meet breed standard because of XYZ. Hey, crazier sh!t has happened before. So now, he's butt-hurt and is looking to ruin your reputation or get you into a world of hurt. What keeps you out of the long-arm of the law in this situation?
Is there something in your contract that states that you aren't guaranteeing the pup will meet breed standards and registration depends on that? Or is it his word against yours when all is cut and dry? Do you have to worry about being fined if he says "well they said it was a purebred puppy but it can't be registered because of XYZ"?

What protects the breeder in this kind of situation?

Now to flip the script, what protects the buyer? Say I buy a JRT (or any unmentioned breed, just using JRT's as an example now) puppy from a breeder in Canada that works doesn't register with the CKC or any other "approved" registering bodies. So at a year old let's say that this puppy cannot be registered because of XYZ. Is it part of the guarantee that I am reimbursed/replacement puppy if the puppy doesn't reach the standard in any form?


Again, not "calling" anyone out; I'm curious. There were just thoughts I pondered on the whole subject. So to be blunt and to the point, in such a sale, what protects the breeder and the buyer from ending up out of money with a puppy that doesn't meet standard for whatever reason, and what protects the breeder from having someone go whining to the powers that be and lie and say they were sold a "purebred animal" without papers? Is there something like a limited registration that shows their pedigree but the animal is on a non-breeding registration until proven to be in standard? If this has been answered, I apologize but some of the posts were long and since I'm in the middle of moving with 3 kids to supervise, I can't say that I have had time to read as in-depth as I'd like to.

[LauraLeigh]

Originally Posted by ACampbell0304

Alright, another question (puts on flame retardant material)

What keeps your puppy buyers from having buyers remorse because their purebred but not sold as purebred dog because of the legal situation doesn't fit the standard to be registered at 1 yr of age? (i.e. in the EVENT that it does not, not saying you aren't breeding to standard...let's just say genetics can be a b!tch and it happens - like with white GSD's, recessive's and all that good stuff)

For instance, say any of you that breed a dog not listed with the APA sells a dog to BillyBob Bozo, a long time friend of the family and all around good person, knowledgible etc, i.e. the perfect puppy buyer. He knows what's going on and what the registration requirements are at the 1 year of age. He knows that this puppy cannot be registered unless it fits the breed standard. You've pissed him off (or not we can do this either way) and come to find out, the puppy didn't meet breed standard because of XYZ. Hey, crazier sh!t has happened before. So now, he's butt-hurt and is looking to ruin your reputation or get you into a world of hurt. What keeps you out of the long-arm of the law in this situation?
Is there something in your contract that states that you aren't guaranteeing the pup will meet breed standards and registration depends on that? Or is it his word against yours when all is cut and dry? Do you have to worry about being fined if he says "well they said it was a purebred puppy but it can't be registered because of XYZ"?

What protects the breeder in this kind of situation?

Now to flip the script, what protects the buyer? Say I buy a JRT (or any unmentioned breed, just using JRT's as an example now) puppy from a breeder in Canada that works doesn't register with the CKC or any other "approved" registering bodies. So at a year old let's say that this puppy cannot be registered because of XYZ. Is it part of the guarantee that I am reimbursed/replacement puppy if the puppy doesn't reach the standard in any form?


Again, not "calling" anyone out; I'm curious. There were just thoughts I pondered on the whole subject. So to be blunt and to the point, in such a sale, what protects the breeder and the buyer from ending up out of money with a puppy that doesn't meet standard for whatever reason, and what protects the breeder from having someone go whining to the powers that be and lie and say they were sold a "purebred animal" without papers? Is there something like a limited registration that shows their pedigree but the animal is on a non-breeding registration until proven to be in standard? If this has been answered, I apologize but some of the posts were long and since I'm in the middle of moving with 3 kids to supervise, I can't say that I have had time to read as in-depth as I'd like to.

No, my contracts for pet pups offered no guarantee of standard, and an altered dog would be recorded anyways and not registered, as no point to register a dog not being bred, if you record your papers look much the same and you can still "play" just not in conformation. (Unless the terrier goes over height, then you cannot race either) Luckily I have never had that happen.

My signed copy of the contract, stating all the information would protect me, It states type, and explains fully the recording option for a pet puppy, If a breeding quality puppy goes out of standard for any reason, then the contract explains the options there as well (Refund or Return and a new Pup) A recording works much like a limited registration.

I have to run, going to be late for work... I may have more to add later, but thats a quick answer from skimming your post.. LOL

[pitbullpony]

I have a question; since I deal with 2 rare breeds; 1 registered with the UKC and 1 birth recorded with EBBASA; to be appraised at a later date and then registered.

Do these recognized registries have to be incorporated in Canada; or just incorporated.

This is what I found; couldn't find anything else; so some help from those that have been working on this would be useful.

PUREBRED STATUS

Purebred status

30. (1) Subject to subsection (2), the determination of what is a purebred of a distinct breed shall be in accordance with the by-laws of the association incorporated in respect of that distinct breed.

<<< this means inc. in Canada -- yes?

Minimum inheritance
(2) No association may, by its by-laws, determine that an animal is a purebred of a distinct breed if the animal has less than seven-eighths of its inheritance from the foundation stock of the animal***8217;s breed or from animals previously registered as purebreds by the association.

Limit of one association per breed or evolving breed
(2) Only one association may be incorporated in respect of each distinct breed and each evolving breed.

Now this seems to say that the first one incorporated in Canada is the only one allowed. But say my Boerboel is registered with both EBBASA and SABT -- if someone was stupid enough to attempt to incorporate the registry in Canada (if that's what must be done) -- it doesn't nullify her registry with the other association.

Registration on behalf of an association

59. (1) An association may, with the consent of the Minister, authorize any other association to register or identify, on the association***8217;s behalf, the animals of any distinct breed or evolving breed in respect of which the association is incorporated.

By-laws
(2) Where an association is authorized to register or identify animals on behalf of another association, the association shall do so in accordance with the other association***8217;s by-laws relating to registration and identification.

Now the above is just funny; so if there was an incorporated (in Canada) association they could contract out to a non-incorporated (in Canada) association to issue pedigree papers?

(e) without an express statement that the animal***8217;s registration or identification is from a jurisdiction other than Canada, offer to sell, contract to sell or sell, as registered or identified, or as eligible to be registered or identified, within or outside the meaning of this Act, any animal that is not registered or identified, or eligible to be registered or identified;

So this could clear a breeder? Stating that pedigree comes from the UKC or EBBASA or SABT etc.; or the AKC?

Recognized/incorporated associations;

DOG

Canadian Border Collie Association

Canadian Canine Federation

The Canadian Kennel Club

Working Canine Association of Canada -

And is this why there was a falling out between FCI and the CKC?

[Dekka]

Acamp>> Even if the JRT was an APA recognized breed the APA allows for performance (or health testing) requirements prior to registration.

So even if they said they were sold a 'purebred' JRT it would be hard to make it stick. And most breeders I know if you were sold a breeding quality dog (the only dogs you would register) will refund or give you another puppy if the one you get is unsuitable. I gave Scandal back.. she was a fantastic little dog-but there was NO WAY she was registrable (I wouldn't have bred her anyway) So when Ado has a litter I will likely either get another girl.. or a refund.

I know people who have returned otherwise very nice dogs but who's bite goes off. It can be small things.

In your example.. why is the fellow wanting a breeding dog? If he is planning on becoming a breeder he would know these things happen. (I have had not so great luck in buying puppies-but I still have the greatest respect for the breeder of those puppies. I realize it has simply been bad luck on my part) If he isn't going to breed, you can't register an altered dog anyway. Any JRT can be recorded. Even the short legged puds can be recorded (as long as they aren't shorter than 10 inches). And if you want to play and JRT trials all you need is a registered OR recorded terrier.

[adojrts]

Like Laura said, you sell a pup with either the intent of the 'possiblity' of that pup being show/breeding stock or its a pet. To expand on that some are sold on the 'promise' of a working dog as well. In my case many of my dogs go to performance homes, they don't want to breed them and those people hardly care about breed standards as long as the dog is able to perform and do it well.
I have had a couple people come back to me after they purchased a 'performance/pet' pup and now these people are thinking about breeding. Funny enough, its their vets and trainers that have convinced them to not spay/neuter.
Depending on the person, I MAY ammend the original contract for a limited amount of time. Then if the pup is absolutely a good example of the breed, has a great temperament along with the fact that the owner is proving that dog in a ring, PLUS the main requirement from me is they take the dog to the working field to be proven there, If it doesn't/wont work/hunt, it doens't get bred, Period. And of course all the health clearances have also been done.

To reiterate what Laural said, we do have a limited registration and puppy owners have had the process explained to them so there is no confusion. Concerning show/breeding prospects, the conditions and contracts are the same as purchasing from a Kennel club reg'd breeder.
Another thing, just because we sell a pup under a spay/neuter contract doesn't mean that pup matures outside of the breed standard or has faults that would make it only able to be reg'd in our limited registry. In my case I have only ever produced 3 pups that would have been denied full registration and two of them it was known when they were pups..........One had a herina, One didn't make standard by being too small and having seriously wonky ears and the other one was Petie whom I kept, he only had on testicle.

Over the years I have met serveral dogs of various breeders that were outside of their standard........but they had their papers, whether those papers be open or limited. And often the owners didn't know or didn't care. I have also met several PRT's with limited or open papers and those dogs wouldn't get full papers in our registry because the dog was outside of the standard or had faults that would demand that they not receive full papers, again the owners were clueless that their dog wasn't a good example of the breed.

So did that help or just muddy the waters more?? lol