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  #11  
Old 03-15-2009, 10:38 PM
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I said the threatening from the non threatening wrong.. I meant if they appeared to be no harm at first, and then changed their action, the dog would react appropriately to the threat. Or is that still unrealistic?

Izzy, I worked with GSD's that could physically knock me down and drag me off without realizing it, IF they weren't paying attention to me, or I didn't have that dogs trust and respect. I think that it's more about respect, in that regard.
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Old 03-15-2009, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by CharlieDog View Post
I said the threatening from the non threatening wrong.. I meant if they appeared to be no harm at first, and then changed their action, the dog would react appropriately to the threat. Or is that still unrealistic?

Izzy, I worked with GSD's that could physically knock me down and drag me off without realizing it, IF they weren't paying attention to me, or I didn't have that dogs trust and respect. I think that it's more about respect, in that regard.
I would think that in a guardian breed, the mere presence of an intruder on their turf would be considered threatening.

What kinds of non-threatening vs. threatening signals would the dog be looking for? Carrying a weapon? Body posture? How would it know a weapon carrier from a package carrier?

Izzy, Strider is an 80 lb sight hound and can drag me (120 lb human) around. I doubt there is any human who could muscle a molosser around. Not even The Governator.
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  #13  
Old 03-15-2009, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Romy View Post
I would think that in a guardian breed, the mere presence of an intruder on their turf would be considered threatening.

What kinds of non-threatening vs. threatening signals would the dog be looking for? Carrying a weapon? Body posture? How would it know a weapon carrier from a package carrier?

Izzy, Strider is an 80 lb sight hound and can drag me (120 lb human) around. I doubt there is any human who could muscle a molosser around. Not even The Governator.

I would think that threatening would be getting loud, angrily waving their hands around, stepping forward aggressively.. I know that coming onto the property *could* be considered a threat by a guardian breed, (more than likely IS) but there is a difference in someone coming into the backyard looking for a chat, to someone coming into the backyard looking for a fight.

I guess maybe that is pretty unrealistic.. But someone can be acting all nicey nice to get close to you before they try to hurt you.. I gather that the dog would understand once the person got too close and started acting aggressively vs. someone who just doesn't understand personal space.. The dog probably wouldn't like either one, but one would prompt the dog to act and the other would probably prompt the dog to be looking to the owner for direction.
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Old 03-16-2009, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Izzy's Valkyrie View Post
Here's my random thread related question. Is is absolutely necessary for the owner of a large molosser such as a Tosa or Fila to be physically stronger than their dog full grown? Wouldn't proper training and socialization assure the owner, no matter what size, that they have control of their dog in any situation?
Izzy, I am 5'2 and barely a 100 lbs, when we get our Fila there is no way I will ever be physically stronger and even if I was it has never been my style to control a dog in that manner.

Instead I prefer to be in harmony with my creatures working with them on training and building a strong foundation of mutual respect.
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  #15  
Old 03-16-2009, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Izzy's Valkyrie View Post
Here's my random thread related question. Is is absolutely necessary for the owner of a large molosser such as a Tosa or Fila to be physically stronger than their dog full grown? Wouldn't proper training and socialization assure the owner, no matter what size, that they have control of their dog in any situation?
It's not a realistic expectation at all. Kharma is far stronger than just about any human when it comes right down to it. She's damned near impervious to pain as well. What holds her is the agreement we have inherent in our relationship.

To put it into perspective . . . I see little 50 pound APBTs pulling well in excess of a ton of weight at pulls.
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  #16  
Old 03-16-2009, 09:05 PM
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That's what I thought. I was reading through the molosser breed site and one of the requirements for keeping a Tosa Inu (Which I now find verrrrrry interesting ) was to be physically stronger than the dog. It seemed like an out and out impossibility so I just had to ask. I was thinking Renee was a body builder to be controlling Kharma
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Old 03-16-2009, 10:48 PM
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Controlling a big dog is no different than controlling a large horse - convincing them you are god and there is never a time they will get to do anything without you; and leverage

Quote:
I would think that threatening would be getting loud, angrily waving their hands around, stepping forward aggressively.. I know that coming onto the property *could* be considered a threat by a guardian breed, (more than likely IS) but there is a difference in someone coming into the backyard looking for a chat, to someone coming into the backyard looking for a fight.

I guess maybe that is pretty unrealistic.. But someone can be acting all nicey nice to get close to you before they try to hurt you.. I gather that the dog would understand once the person got too close and started acting aggressively vs. someone who just doesn't understand personal space.. The dog probably wouldn't like either one, but one would prompt the dog to act and the other would probably prompt the dog to be looking to the owner for direction.
I think you are asking a lot of any dog; and putting yourself in for a dangerous situation.

Dora doesn't like the gas man/uninvited people coming into the back yard to read the meter. She is all hackles and barking and that's fine; I got a guardian dog to keep strange people out of the house and yard. She is fine when invited people are here; very good in fact; but she doesn't like it when they cross her boundaries; she's very protective of me, but listens when I tell her to leave it.

I would suggest if you can't prevent every Tom Dick and Harry from wandering into your yard; if you hang out with a group of truly idiotic; death wish friends; you may want to stay away from a guardian breed. Yes if you own a guardian breed you may not be able to tolerate rough housing from friends; dogs of a suspicious nature may not get that your buddy grabbing you in a headlock and wrestling you to the ground because your team just beat his; and they generally won't put up with scenes like that.

Dogs may or may not understand your scenario of SallyTooClose vs. BobtheRapist; and quite frankly that shouldn't be the dogs decision; it should be yours. You can desensitize a dog to the point that every thing that goes on is hunky-dory; but then what use is the dog to you when someone grabs you and hustles you off quietly and the dog just thinks they are playing.
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  #18  
Old 03-16-2009, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Izzy's Valkyrie View Post
I was thinking Renee was a body builder to be controlling Kharma
Well, I really was for years Seriously. Routinely benched 250 and squatted 450 and kept 16.5 inch biceps and 28" thighs. Along with a 23 inch waist that I will never see again, lol!
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  #19  
Old 03-17-2009, 01:41 AM
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What about a Tibetan Mastiff? I'm not sure how much drive you want intact, however the Tibetan mastiff (although unfortunately..) has been majorly westernized and the guardian instincts are less upfront than a CO or CAS. However, that being said when looking at any LGD I think asking a dog not to be threatened by a stranger entering it's territory, threatening or not is asking way too much for dogs bred to fend off such intruders. The tibetan mastiff is can be same-sex dog aggressive, though. I think someone already mentioned but the CAS is best dog wise. If you want more drive there are breeders in North America who have sharper dogs, and europe can become a option as well.

Tibetan Mastiff Information, Tibetan Mastiffs, Tibetan Mastiff Breeders, Tibetan Mastiff Puppies, Tibetan Mastiff Pictures, Photos, Tibetan Mastiff Info .com

American Tibetan Mastiff Association

I made a thread awhile ago and Planet Molosser and pitbull pony gave some helpful posts. It's mostly about the socialization aspect of LGD's
http://www.chazhound.com/forums/t87088-2/
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  #20  
Old 03-17-2009, 07:34 AM
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I didn't mean I wanted the dog to be okay with everyone walking in the yard, rather I meant that I would like a dog who isn't going to try to eat everyone who comes into their territory.. Yard or house. Barking, snarling and carrying on is fine (it goes on with Oz on a regular basis, he just doesn't understand the concept of our yard vs. the sidewalk across the street :-p) I just wouldn't want a dog that (in the daylight hours anyway, at night, anyone in the backyard is fair game..) is going to immediately launch an attack. Our yard is securely fenced in, but that doesn't mean someone can't scale the fence, or open the gate.

I completely understand that it would be pointless to desensitize the dog to every type of rough housing interaction the humans may have, but I am not someone who normally gets rough housed about by my friends (and if any of them ever head locked and wrestled me to the ground over SPORTS, they are in for a world of hurt, LGD or NOT.)

I've met a few show bred Tibetans actually, and they didn't really seem to be much of a guardian breed. Now, granted that was a show strain. They also seemed a lot more... drooly and disinterested in their handlers than I'd like a dog to be.

I really think that the CAO is better for what I want, mostly because Oz is a jerk, and while I do much to curb his more theatrical "I'm the boss!" tendencies, he still tries to put on a show every now and then (with other dogs, not people) and a LGD could probably eat him without pausing by the time it's two if it has natural DA tendencies. I could never own a male APBT. At least while I cohabit with this merle terror of mine.

I'd like to rescue a CAO, but I'm afraid that even if it's a female adult, Oz would show his ass and she'd spend the rest of her life trying to eat him, whereas a pup growing up with him would just accept that that's how he is and ignore it.

Because they never forget do they? If someone or something aggresses the first time they meet them, they never do forgive and forget that. Or am I off base (I have been known to be wrong, and I've had to change my thinking a couple times since this thread started as well...)
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