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  #21  
Old 01-31-2009, 12:45 PM
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What is it you want your dog to do or not do that you feel the only way to fix it is to scruff him? Perhaps you'd be open to a few other ideas that are more effective without taking the risks which are well documented by professional trainers, veterinary behaviorists etc. Sometimes some of those side effects don't show up right away but build over time, unbeknownst to the owner.

I've had loads of dogs and never had a single one growl at me except play growly, talkie sounds. Why is your dog growling at you in the first place anyhow?

I'm working with two dogs that have bitten people several times. Their growling has been punished in the past. So far, neither has bitten or growled at me. I go out of my way to not do anything which might put them on the defensive. They appear to trust me. And we're working on them trusting other people. They're coming along well, making lots of improvement. But no scruffing or verbal scolding is allowed, no hands-on force; no grabbing the collar (until we've had time to re-condition them to viewing that as a good thing) and no pushing or otherwise man handling. Everything is done psychologically by making their behaviors (in and of itself) as well as other people... predictors of good things...things that work well for the dogs.

Yes, dogs very naturally don't like someone looming over them and putting their hands on top of their heads. But that is not the same thing that can be caused by physical punishment.

Perhaps your dog is not as sensitive as some and has built a punishment callous. That's another thing that often happens. In time, unless the punishment is severe, that scruffing will mean less and less to the dog and won't have as much effect. Then you have to increase the intensity of the punishment to make it stop the behavior. You're playing with a time bomb by resisting learning some other ways to get the behavior you want without the undesirable and risky side effects.
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  #22  
Old 01-31-2009, 01:02 PM
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I've had loads of dogs and never had a single one growl at me
I take that back....although she wasn't my dog and I didn't raise her from a pup. She was/is my son's. But she was terrified of having her nails clipped after having been traumatized during that procedure. No vet would touch her with a barge pole unless enesthasized. She got positively balistic/vicious if she even saw you coming her way with the clippers. It was light years beyond growling. If I would have scruffed her, OMG! I would have had my face ripped off. No....I took about 5 or 6 days and gradually made the clippers and clipping into a grand thing. She now is ecstatic when the Dremel or clippers come out. All the dogs are. She can hardly wait. LOL. It means ice cream or Porterhouse steak is on the way. She trusts me no matter what I have to do to her. And that didn't develop by scruffing her when she did something I didn't like.
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  #23  
Old 02-01-2009, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
Interestingly none of my moms ever actually corrected a puppy with physical contact. Riley would put the fear of mom in the pups but never touched them-though they would still yelp. The pups would play rough and sometimes an adult (usually a clumsy larger dog lol) would knock a puppy and puppies would yelp.
Morgan never had puppies, but she was a foster mom when I brought home new puppies - the only dog I had that I trusted with a young pup, her job was to provide doggy interactions to help the new pup settle in. When she felt a need to correct a pup, she would stand very tall (as tall as a dog with no legs can ), puff out her chest, and place her chin on top of the pup's head.
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  #24  
Old 02-01-2009, 12:26 AM
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BOTH of my bitches (and the Hairy Godmother) use/used physical correction including holding the pup down with their mouths until they were still than immediately licking and consoling. The muzzle pop, and fling them with their muzzles...hold down with forepaws and forechest as well.

My Beagles...are pack dogs, bred to live in large groups peacefully, and they still can do that to this day in most every case...perhaps one has something to do with the other...who knows.
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  #25  
Old 02-01-2009, 02:59 PM
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And if your dog's still growl then how was scruffing them to stop it successful?
If your dog barks and you teach it not to bark, does it still bark? or if your dog bites your pants and teach it not to bite, will it still bite tugs and ropes and balls? If a dog one day starts getting really possesive over its food and is a little puppy and growls and I grab it by the scruff and it stops, along with other things to make it comfortable for me to be around the puppy when its eating, and it doesn't growl at me or get uncomfortable with me around its food, can it still growl in other circumstances? or can it never growl again? They growl when the play, they growl at the cats, they'll growl at each other sometimes, they don't growl at me. I keep getting told that by supressing the growling they won't do it and will just lash out. I don't see that at all. I can see somebody creating that, but its a possibility, not an absolute and i'm thinking if you create that big of a problem by scruffing a puppy, that person probably has a lot more working against them than scruffing a puppy and have a few dozen reasons why they'll have a poor relationship with their dog.

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BUT to all of us outsiders we see stressed dogs who are NOT experiencing a fantastic relationship. So unless we see your dogs-we can only go by what we see of people who DO tend to punish such things.
which Is why i fully volunteer to show the best I can in video, in person would be better, but I doubt anyone wants to come here this time of year, we've had 2 days above 30 F in the past month and a half.

I'll do some OB, give food, take food, sit and pet while eating, wrestle in the snow, come at over the top with big arms, stroke over the eyes, make quick movements towards the face whatever. and you can judge her reaction and our relationship. She's not fully trained by anymeans, i've been really lazy this winter, but the relationship will be visible.

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The problem I have with this statement is this: JQP (and the lurkers taking advice from this thread) don't know how much is too much. They don't know how hard to shake their dogs. They don't know how to get the timing right. They don't know when they've used the scruff shakes too many times.
I agree and one reason I don't give advice on the internet period. I'll give my thoughts about something, but unless i'm with the dog i'm not training it, or attempting to. People get lost and see different things and do the exact opposite of what you want when you're there and can show them, I can only imagine what would happen if I tried giving advice over the net.

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Halting the symptom may be just fine for you. BUT that doesn't make it the best way.. or the recommended way to train dogs.
That isn't all I did, just because I used a scruffing on a puppy doesn't meant that is where it ended in training. I used it at that moment because it was unacceptable to me, and what I expect out of the dog I had in front of me. I'm not recomending people do it, but I still stand by my words that me grabbing her scruff did not damage her or our relationship in the least and my end result was what I wanted.

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What is it you want your dog to do or not do that you feel the only way to fix it is to scruff him
It's not the only way, but its what I did.

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Sometimes some of those side effects don't show up right away but build over time, unbeknownst to the owner.
She's 2.5 now about and why I'm offering to be judged on the net. I'm sure it isn't perfect, far from it, but I'm willing to do it.

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Why is your dog growling at you in the first place anyhow?
probably cause she didn't want me around her food. I had been around her eating since the day I brought her home at 9 weeks and around 4-5 months or so she got really really possessive. I don't know why, but it was over really quick. Maybe I did something, maybe it built up, maybe she was getting a tad bit older and more confident in her surroundings and decided to tell me to take a hike?? who knows, i do know it hasn't been a problem since.

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Perhaps your dog is not as sensitive as some and has built a punishment callous.
well I can actually put a collar and leash on her and give her a correction and see what she does. I'm betting she's pretty sensitive, she's sensitive to just my voice and besides bitework and tracking, ALL of her training has been done without leash and without a collar. It's still a work in progress and far from done, but i've come up with a lot of excuses not to train as much as I should lately. i'm not perfect.

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In time, unless the punishment is severe, that scruffing will mean less and less to the dog and won't have as much effect.
I did it like twice 2 years ago, for that one instance, and I used the grabbing of the neck to quickly settle her down a couple times as a puppy, that's just a touch thing though

like i said, i know why somebody wouldn't do it, or doesn't want to. I've heard and read all the reasons why, and we could give hypothetical scenerios forever
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