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  #11  
Old 01-09-2009, 10:26 PM
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LOL BB. When I use to go to classes with Lyric, there were always Honey Nut Cheerios and little pieces of string cheese all over the arena and all the other dogs were distracted by them. I felt sooooooooo naughty being so clumsy. LOL.
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  #12  
Old 01-09-2009, 10:55 PM
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My personal specialty is to not close the top tightly, and to have treats bouncing out like popcorn when I'm running the course!
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Old 01-09-2009, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by BostonBanker View Post
My personal specialty is to not close the top tightly, and to have treats bouncing out like popcorn when I'm running the course!
Mine is to not understand how the bag clips onto the pocket and to have it fall off, spewing treats all over the ground
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Old 01-10-2009, 07:25 AM
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Thanks for all your replies, that is sort of what I thought. I think I'll just stop using them and I'll just wash the stupid counter when I'm done lol. I bought some freeze dried cod so hopefully she'll like that and I can use the for outside training in my pockets.

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SOOOoooOO, I stopped using the treats. They now work off of praise and praise alone.
Phoebe does not like to be touched very much, I think petting her would be closer to a punishment. I don't expect a dog to work for praise when he could instead go meet that dog or go greet that person or do anything else. Maybe a very praise motivated dog in an indoor/boring environment, but unless you are punishing the dog for not listening I don't think praise alone would work for 99% of dogs, I think you've been spoiled by your border collies
I KNOW dogs can learn to work without knowing you have treats, I was just wondering if the treat bag let them know you had treats and affected them like showing them a treat would. I don't lure with treats anymore so I'm not going to have a treat bag.

We actually went for a walk the other day and I had food in my pocket (coat pockets work because they are big) and I asked her to sit and she did without knowing I had treats, then we moved on an d I asked her again and she did and she got a treat, so I was happy. Then after she knew I had treats we worked on other stuff, downs, spins, heeling (which is her newest thing, not perfect yet, she cannot pivett or go backwards) and I was amazed how well she did, she had never done them on walks. I was varied with treat giving. But We actually heeled half way down the street and did turns (wide ones but still) in both directions and she never missed a beat, I was pumped
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  #15  
Old 01-10-2009, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by corgipower View Post
Mine is to not understand how the bag clips onto the pocket and to have it fall off, spewing treats all over the ground
I clip it to the back of my waistband, so that every time I bend over I dump the whole bag down my pants.
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  #16  
Old 01-10-2009, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Maxy24 View Post
Phoebe does not like to be touched very much, I think petting her would be closer to a punishment. I don't expect a dog to work for praise when he could instead go meet that dog or go greet that person or do anything else. Maybe a very praise motivated dog in an indoor/boring environment, but unless you are punishing the dog for not listening I don't think praise alone would work for 99% of dogs, I think you've been spoiled by your border collies
In my house its 50%. Not exactly scientific with four dogs for comparison. Nyx doesn't like being touched, so for her petting would be at best unrewarding and at worst a mild aversive. She works well for food and is even better motivated for a toy.

Ares doesn't find being petted to be aversive, but he doesn't view it as a reward. He works solely for food.

Morgan and Tyr will happily accept food and toy rewards, but they will also eagerly work for just praise. Tyr has been known to walk away from food and toys in order to receive praise and petting from me.
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  #17  
Old 01-10-2009, 01:51 PM
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They needed to learn to listen regardless of whether or not I have food for them
They need to listen but you need to make your reinforcers work. Dogs don't necessarily agree that they need to listen very well. We think that's the "right" thing for them to do. But they don't work that way....according to what we "expect." I always get a kick out of people who say, "I expect my dogs to obey. They need to listen whether they like it or not." Dogs don't work very well that way. They do what works best for them. Selfish little creeps. LOL.

Rewards are only reinforcers when they change behavior and they need to be something the dog LOVES and I mean goes APE over. Praise is usually marginal. (for various reasons) If your dogs won't work unless you have food, that means that food is way up high on the hierarchy of potential reinforcers for your dogs. Now, just to get them so they work first, get treat after. That usually comes by varying where you retrieve your treat from and once the behavior is pretty regular, going to a variable reinforcement schedule so they don't know when they'll get something. They work anyhow in hopes of getting something one of these times....then spacing out even more, but reinforcing before they start giving up and flagging. If the treats aren't given when the dog is acting pushy, you won't reinforce pushiness. If they come out of the blue when the behavior is as you like it, that behavior will be reinforced.

You can even do some exerciese that teach the dog that by not getting something by direct access, he will get it. This link is informative: http://www.dragonflyllama.com/%20DOG...s/TL26Zen.html

I make sure to get my dogs so that they WILL comply and work, try things whether or not I have treats on my person. If I'm outside in my yard, I might use the picnic table or a branch on a tree to house my treats. Or up on the porch railing. I mark the behavior and then go get a treat from various places. Of course, it can't take more than a couple of seconds to get the treat and a clicker comes in handy to bridge the gap in time. The dog gets so into the game that if I skip a treat a few times, (once the behavior is pretty good) he'll keep trying. Gradually, over time I space them out more, but still give them something periodically. And it's not always a treat. But it must be something they go ape over. Starting out with lower value and increasing is important within a session. If you start out with the best and go down hill from there, it makes those reinforcers even less valued.

Anyhow, I don't have too much trouble with the bag. They do love to work when I have it. But I make sure that they get conditioned to my not having it all the time but believe they stand a good chance. Plus, once they get into the habit of being reinforced for something and perform reliably, that in itself helps because the association is getting solidified between the response and the reinforcer...even if you don't have a reinforcer on you at the time. To comply becomes rewarding in itself on account of that association, like a conditioned reflex. But that's a little later down the road. (AND that won't last forever. Behaviors will often regress so you can't depend on that forever. They need to be reinforced periodically to be sure)

Anyhow, just my take on it for what it's worth.
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  #18  
Old 01-10-2009, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by corgipower View Post
Ares. He was the first dog I did much training with. Always wore a bait bag -- the carpenter's apron. He would come out for training, look at my waist and if there was no bait bag, he wouldn't do anything good.
LOL, I'm still chuckling at the vision Smart dog.
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  #19  
Old 01-10-2009, 02:09 PM
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Smart dog.
Yea...too smart
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  #20  
Old 01-12-2009, 09:49 PM
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I wear a lot of pants with cargo pockets. The food goes in the pockets, or in a ziploc in the pockets if its nasty treats. Takes some fiddling to have it easily accessible, but because it's part of my clothing the dogs haven't gotten wise to it.
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