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  #11  
Old 01-08-2009, 05:20 PM
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Maxy24 Maxy24 is offline
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I agree with everyone else. The problem with many positive reinforcement classes is that positive reinforcement is not one size fit all and so seeing how one person gets a dog to do something may not work for your dog, like you said. With correction based training it's easier, just do whatever you can to make the dog afraid or in pain, it does not take as much creativity as positive reinforcement does for some dogs.

Sine he likes food that's great, make sure during training you don't bribe with the food. That means don't show the food before giving a command or else the dog will think that showing the food is part of the command and will not respond otherwise.

Also remember to body block. If I had a dog that jumped on the table I would slide myself between him and the table and walk towards him to make him back away. Then I'd move away and if he went for the table again I'd step in front of him. There is no pain, there is no fear, but the dog is still understanding that what he is trying to do will not work.

Dogs CANNOT learn right or wrong or good or bad, the simply learn safe or unsafe and works or doesn't work. They avoid dangerous things, do safe things, do what works best and avoid doing what does not work.

Also remember that teaching though punishment is quick unfair. Some people use it later to correct a dog for failing at a command he already knows, I don't even like that and I still feel it's unnecessary and cruel but it's even worse in a teaching stage. the dog has no idea what is expected of him and he's being punished for breaking rules that he does not know exists. Think of it like a child going to school and being physically punished for raising his hand to answer a question. Raising his hand is something he feels is a proper, normal, appropriate way to do things (just as nearly every behavior a dog does that people find "bad" is perfectly normal for dogs) and was never taught that he was not supposed to do that but he's still being punished for it. most likely the kid will stop raising his hand but he will not know how to answer a question. He is not going to risk trying another thing to answer the question since he does not want a punishment so he'll sit silently. Dogs do this too, it's called shutting down, they don't know how to communicate with you and are afraid to experiment and try new things around you so they stop doing much of anything without being told. It's a real shame.

As was also mentioned, management is VERY important. When you are not around to stop behavior you don't like you need to put the dog somewhere where he cannot rehearse the behavior. Every time the dog does the bad behavior uninterrupted he is rewarded, it's pleasurable. the dog will continue to do so when you are not in the room or house, he is not being sneaky, that is just what he learned is safe. "Eating off the table is safe when mom is not home but dangerous when she is" there is no disobeying going on really, it is simple training, the environment trained him to do it that way.

also remember to train LOTS of commands, they are so useful in managing a dog. Teaching commands like off, come, sit, up, stay, go lie down, let's go (when on a walk), kennel up, back up and everything else are very helpful in making you a force free trainer, you never have to drag the dog off the couch, yank him away from the spot he's been sniffing away at on the walk, shove him in the crate, shove him out of your way etc. you communicate with your dog.

I also think it would be great if you would clicker train him, clicker training rocks. it allows you to mark the exact moment a dog makes the right move, or even a step in the right direction even something as subtle as breaking his stare with another dog for just ONE moment or stopping to grab a breath between barks. it also allows you to wait and watch as you dog tries to figure out what you want him to do. You can stand there quietly and watch your dog until he decides to sniff the ball you placed in front of him and then click and treat. he'll repeat the behavior and it will intensify and in no time you can teach the dog to nose the ball across the floor and into a goal net. You never have to show the dog the treat because you can have a lag between the click and the treat (click means "hey you just earned yourself a treat with what you did!" so the dog knows the moment he did the right thing and you can take the time to go to the counter and get the treat and hand it to him) which prevents any dependency on the dog seeing the treat.

Here is more info: http://www.clickertraining.com/basics

I would RUN out and get "The Culture Clash" it's an AWESOME book, I'm almost done reading it for the second time.

If you need help with anything specific, we can help you out as well, that's what we're here for!!
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  #12  
Old 01-08-2009, 06:08 PM
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Great post Maxi!
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  #13  
Old 01-09-2009, 01:22 AM
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I agree- FANTASTIC post Maxi
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  #14  
Old 01-09-2009, 06:07 AM
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Great replies as usual. I would just like to add, that the OP also needs to know and understand that dogs don't generalize very well, in the being stages of training.

i.e' But he/she does it at home!'. It is competeley normal and should be expected, that a behaviour (sit/down/loose leash walking etc) that the dog/pup is able to do at home or in class, can't do the same behaviour somewhere else (anywhere else) and it also has to be trained in all those situations.

Lynn
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  #15  
Old 01-09-2009, 07:52 AM
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Again, thanks for all the great advice and I will stay in the class. As always, Redyre, LOVE your posts and links. If it wasn't for you, I would have never found this forum and I think the people here are wonderful!

So, since I have had so many offers of help...

Ike's had a pretty lackluster response to most of the toys I have given him. I have a pretty decent selection and I have been rotating them since I got him. I learned toy rotation when my kids were little,lol. Anyways, the only toy I have found he really responds to is OMG THE BALLLLLL!

Our homework for the week in pup class is "Yes!" and treat. Next class, I need to have a fanny pack or a bait bag (filled with 5 different treats that I already have) and a toy that motivates him. She specifically said no balls for obvious reasons. I can't find a pet store near us that has bait bags and I need ideas of where/if I can find a ball on a string or something similar. I do have the tug with a ball at the end, but he's not impressed.

Anyone know where to find a bait bag or who still sells fanny packs and a good ball like substitute? I could order a bait bag online, but I doubt it would reach me before class

Oh, and another concern. I have 3 kids (15,10 and 7) and they have a couple friends who are aver every day (9 and 12). Ike has been very mouthy with the kids. This is something I want to work on immediately. Suggestions? Tried having everyone ignore him when he gets nippy, he just keeps trying.

Last edited by Mjjean; 01-09-2009 at 08:05 AM.
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  #16  
Old 01-09-2009, 08:16 AM
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Where abouts are you?

Most large pet stores will sell bait bags.

How to create a motivating toy
http://www.clickerdogs.com/createamotivatingtoy.htm

many dogs need to 'learn' to play interactively with toys. teaching your dog to tug will be one of the best things ever-training wise.

Have your pup drag a light leash (supervise obviously) if he gets mouthy toss the end of the leash over the nearest door knob or other sturdy protrusion. And walk out. Then when you come back (30 seconds) interact with a toy.

If he has learned that playing and biting fast moving squealing children is fun he will need to 'unlearn it' it takes longer to 'unlearn' something than it does to learn it. The new behaviour will need to be practiced many more times than the old one was to replace it.

Remember things always get worse before they get better (the extinction burst) so don't give up! And if the dog gets rewarded during an extinction burst you will go right back to where you were... so make sure everyone sticks with it.
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  #17  
Old 01-09-2009, 08:18 AM
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Here's a sticky about puppy nipping: http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83183

I know that Petsmart has several different types of bait bags. There is one with the Petsmart logo that is $5, you cannot find a less expensive bag in a store. And it holds up just as well as more expensive bags. There is also the Outward Hound bag, which is only a couple of dollars more and comes in different colors. I'm sure that Petco also has bait bags, I just don't know specifically what they are.

As far as the toy, for dogs who like balls I love this one. I think you can also find that one at Petsmart, you should be able to call the store and ask them if they have the ball with a squirrel tail.
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  #18  
Old 01-09-2009, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mjjean View Post
Anyone know where to find a bait bag or who still sells fanny packs and a good ball like substitute? I could order a bait bag online, but I doubt it would reach me before class
For fanny packs, you could try a walmart or kmart, possibly a target. Maybe a sporting goods store ~ hikers and bikers might use them. You could probably find a bait bag at a pet store, especially the big box stores.
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  #19  
Old 01-09-2009, 09:15 AM
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You know what I use? A waitress apron. It's just a short, little black thing that ties behind my back. Do you have any waitress friends that could score you one? The one I have has a divider so I can put one kind of treat on one side and another in the other side. If I need another area, I'll use a pocket. Sometimes I use a fanny pack that I just got at Walmart or somewhere.

I've found that dogs that don't like every toy often love those rope toys. They wiggle and come "alive."

Good luck! Can't wait to hear how it goes at the next class.
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  #20  
Old 01-09-2009, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
You know what I use? A waitress apron. It's just a short, little black thing that ties behind my back. Do you have any waitress friends that could score you one? The one I have has a divider so I can put one kind of treat on one side and another in the other side.
I use something similar to that. A caarpenter's apron, I think they're called. Canvas, two pockets You can get these at most hardware stores. Pretty cheap.
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