Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > Dog Training Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-02-2008, 11:05 AM
noodlerubyallie's Avatar
noodlerubyallie noodlerubyallie is offline
Sprayin' the spiders
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Iowa
Posts: 1,181
Default Training a Stay for Ruby

I do obedience training classes with Ruby, so currently we are on our first attempt at Intermediate. One of the things they really emphasize is cementing the dog's Staying power, and Ruby is NOT getting it. (Or maybe I'm not )

BTW, Allie just finished Advanced, which is starter Rally-O. Good girl!

I get her into heel, get her attention, give her a firm "Stay" with the hand motion, lead off with my right foot. She stays until my third step and attempts to run after me. I've had three different trainers watch, and they don't see that I'm doing anything that would "call" her to me. So what we've been trying to do is have someone stand on her leash so when she gets up she gets a mild self correction and then she has to resit. The problem is that she doesn't trust people she doesn't know, especially standing behind her, so she refuses to sit again and instead resorts to wooing, yelping, bouncing, etc.

I might add that she does this ONLY in the ring. At home, in public, she will Stay like it's no big deal. At home the stays are done with the distraction of Allie and Noodle. In public, we work at pet stores, etc.

I suspect that she's getting too worked up when we get to class, so her excitement (and stress, when she's on leash she's reactive to other dogs, thank god the class is small) is making her not want to "wait" for what I'm trying to get her to do. We've tried running out her zoomies before class. I've tried being as calm and quiet as I can be when we are training to try and calm her. I've been using hot dogs, Bil Jac and Natural Balance rolls combined as treats, she's highly food motivated. I don't use any kind of corrective collar on her, she doesn't respond to them. So the only things I'm using on her are food, her leather collar and lead.

This is the only exercise she's decided that she doesn't really want to listen to me on. I've been blaming it on Ruby and that independent thinking mind of hers

Any suggestions, oh brilliant Chaz minds???
__________________


U-CH Rocket - BN RN CAA TT CGC TDI
Ruby - CD RA CGC
MBIMBS U-CH Poison
Allie the Lab
Noodle the Mini Dach
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-02-2008, 11:21 AM
corgipower's Avatar
corgipower corgipower is offline
Tweleve Enthusiest
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: here
Posts: 8,233
Default

It sounds like she can stay, but she can't stay in the class setting. Each setting/scenario is a different exercise until you've done enough variables for the dog to generalize.

Since you know she'll break on the third step, only take one or two steps and turn to face her. After a few times of that, take two steps, turn to face her, wait a moment, then back up another step.
__________________
The slayer of all things happy since 2010
Kibble feeder since 1973

Extreme owner of four herding dogs

puzzles, poetry and so much more ~ Doggy Puzzles created by me
sleep!!!
My dog Votes!
proud member of the MUMS 2009 7th place team CISRA 2009 1st place team SUMS 2009 2nd place team
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-02-2008, 11:37 AM
lizzybeth727's Avatar
lizzybeth727 lizzybeth727 is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 6,403
Default

^^^agreed

The more times she gets to practice getting up on your third step, the more difficult it will be for her to learn not to. The best thing to do would be to prevent that bad habit from forming, and since she is not comfortable with people standing behind her, the best thing for you to do would be gradually build up to taking 3+ steps.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-02-2008, 11:40 AM
Maxy24's Avatar
Maxy24 Maxy24 is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 7,775
Default

I agree, stick to just two steps, then walk back and reward, she'll let you know when she's ready for a third step, that's not now.
__________________
~Erin~



Thank you ~Dixie's Mom~ for my awesome siggy!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-02-2008, 12:31 PM
Doberluv's Avatar
Doberluv Doberluv is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: western Wa
Posts: 21,915
Default

Here is how I teach stay: It is detailed and very long, as it is part of the book I am writing. It is a little rough and probably not the finished product, but it's quicker for me to copy and paste than it is to write a lot all over again. Some of the things mentioned may not make perfect sense to you because of pre-existing chapters which explain some of those things. But the main thing is to break things down into small parts, set the dog up for success and reinforce at a high rate at first.

Stay

No matter what you’re teaching your dog, always think in terms of breaking it into parts wherever you can and working each part separately at first. With stay, I see three main parts; there’s the duration, how long is your dog going to be asked to stay. There’s the distance between you and your dog. The further away you are, the more difficult. And finally, there are distractions, the type and degree that will be in the environment where your dog will be able to hold the stay successfully. It certainly would be difficult for a young dog starting out learning this tedious task with squirrels running past or children playing with a ball. That would be setting the dog up to fail.

Always incorporate a release word into your dog’s tasks so that he learns he must stay where you left him until you give permission to get up or move away. I use “OK.” It’s probably not the best word since it is used a lot in every day conversation. Some people use, “free” or “release.” Anything you choose is fine as long as that is the cue you always use to indicate to the dog that he may get up from where you left him.

Start out in the most boring room of your house where there are no distractions. Let’s start with duration and have your dog sit. Stand right in front of him for just one second and pop him a treat and tell him “good boy” quietly and release. Since he has not had much practice with the stay, get that release word in quickly before he breaks the stay. That release word must become part of the deal and tightly associated with the exercise. Keep your praise low key and quiet. Any excitable praise is likely to cause him to leap up in a fit of joy and break the stay before you get a chance to get your release word in. Rewarding and making a fuss after you’ve released him is fine to make the whole task more fun, but be sure to reward before you release him so that he learns that staying is what he’s being reinforced for, not for getting up. Set him up for success. Remember, the more chance for reinforcement for a correct response, the quicker he’ll learn. Now, bring him around in a little circle and start a new exercise. Repeat what you just did, only see if he can hold it for two seconds, treat, praise and release. Then three seconds and so on.

Now, mix it up. This time, have your pup stay for one second, treat without releasing, then two seconds, treat, then three, treat. What you’ve done prior is to work that release word so that it will assist him in knowing when he has permission to break the stay. You’re showing him a contrast now. He is holding the stay and getting a tiny treat each second that he holds it. Don’t ask for too much too soon. Try three or four seconds, rewarding after each and then release him. Have a little tousling fun for a moment and come back to it as long as he seems interested.

So, gradually, over time, you’re going to be adding more duration, sometimes breaking it up with a treat/praise and release and sometimes asking for a little more with a continual holding of the stay. If he breaks the stay before you’ve released him, you’ve asked for too much too soon. Go back to where he was successful and work there a little more.

Once he is getting onto it and holding a stay with you right in front of him for say, ten seconds or so, start adding your cue word and a hand signal. Put your hand up like a traffic cop and say, “stay.” Remember we talked about not muddying up the waters by throwing English words at him that don’t have any meaning yet and getting in the way of his trying to get the behavior. The exception would be the release word because it is not so much a skill as it is the freedom to be released from the performance. With the release word, you can open your arms and make a fuss over him, have some playtime and generally stop all that concentration for a moment.

Give your verbal and visual cue for stay only once. Vary the location you have him stay and vary the hiding place where you retrieve your treat. If you use a clicker, your treat can be on a table near by. But if you don’t have that small bridge of time, you must get the treat to your dog immediately. A pocket or fanny pack will work. Get the behavior first before your dog sees the treat.

Once he’s getting the hang of staying with you right smack dab in front of him and is able to hold it for ten or fifteen seconds reliably, it’s time to incorporate the distance part of this. Anytime you’re adding a new criteria, relax all other criteria. Give your dog his cue to stay and step back one step and immediately, without any hesitation, return to standing right in front of him, treat/praise and have him hold it. Step back two steps and return like you’re on a spring….immediately. Treat/praise. Then three steps back and so on, gradually adding distance but no duration. Work this for some time until he is staying reliably with a distance between you of say, six or eight feet. Again, you can break it up so that sometimes you release and start a new exercise and sometimes have him continue to stay put. Breaking up the exercise can keep him from getting bored and with puppies, especially, their attention span is that of a gnat. Throw a toy, play a little and come back to it or even do another skill for a while. It’s imperative that the pup is interested and having fun. Tomorrow is another day.

After he’s gotten quite reliable staying with you walking back six or eight feet, you can start putting the distance and duration together, making it as easy as possible so your pup can succeed and store up lots of reinforcement. Step back one or two steps and ask for two or three seconds and gradually work your way up to further away and longer duration. Be sure to reinforce for each correct response and remember to practice in different places, with no distractions.

Now comes the “fun” part…the part that can try the patience of every owner or trainer. Distractions. Remember to relax other criteria. In this case, the duration and the distance. Make it easy for him when another person walks through the living room or you drop a toy on the floor next to you. You might move your arms, jump up and down a couple of times. See what you can get away with as long as he holds the stay. If he breaks it and comes to play, he is not being stubborn or naughty. He needs more practice where he was successful. Gradually work in more distractions. Take him outside where there might be more sights and sounds that motivate him more than his interest in staying. Don’t rush this part. Over time, you’ll be raising the criteria; the distance from you, the duration and the distractions. You’ll be trying him out in different locations and your own body position in relation to him will need to be varied as well. A dog may understand that sitting and staying is only something that is done when his owner is standing in front of him, facing him. That is part of the cue. Now, you must show him that stay means stay even if you’re facing away from him, turned sideways to him, squatting down, lying down. You will also be having him stay when he is lying down or standing, not only sitting. Those things will need to be worked in as well.

All these things take time, practice and patience. As he becomes very proficient in staying, it will not be necessary to treat him each and every time he is successful. You will be going onto a fixed reward schedule for a little while, say for two or three sessions or so where you’ll be reinforcing him every third stay. Then you will go onto a variable reinforcement schedule where you’ll be mixing up the number of correct responses in order to be reinforced; after two correct responses, after four, after one, after three, after eight and gradually spreading them out more. If you completely stop reinforcing a dog for behaviors you like, you will likely see some regression at some point. So, you must reinforce frequently enough that the behavior doesn’t fall apart.

Here is where a lot of people ruin their dog’s solid stay: They call him to come from a stay. Don’t do this. Go to your dog. I will call my dog from a stay, only one out of every ten stays and only when he has developed a rock solid stay in all kinds of circumstances. Even then, I use the word, “wait,” not “stay.” Even though you have given him permission to break the stay to come, it puts it in his mind that anticipation of getting to break it and run to you or run somewhere else. Keep your dog’s stay solid. It might save his life one day.

Creating a default stay (that's the next part of my stay chapter, along with other more advanced things like long down stays and staying while the owner is out of sight etc. But I will leave that stuff out of here)


Written by: Carrie
©All Rights Reserved
__________________
"If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams 1776





"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

Thomas Jefferson
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-02-2008, 02:40 PM
noodlerubyallie's Avatar
noodlerubyallie noodlerubyallie is offline
Sprayin' the spiders
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Iowa
Posts: 1,181
Default

Thanks everyone! I knew I was missing something in the middle that would help her (and me) out.

Now I just have to find a nice way of telling the class trainer that I don't want to go any farther than three steps away from her until she gets it!
__________________


U-CH Rocket - BN RN CAA TT CGC TDI
Ruby - CD RA CGC
MBIMBS U-CH Poison
Allie the Lab
Noodle the Mini Dach
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-02-2008, 02:43 PM
corgipower's Avatar
corgipower corgipower is offline
Tweleve Enthusiest
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: here
Posts: 8,233
Default

I would hope that the trainer can understand it.

Let us know how it goes!
__________________
The slayer of all things happy since 2010
Kibble feeder since 1973

Extreme owner of four herding dogs

puzzles, poetry and so much more ~ Doggy Puzzles created by me
sleep!!!
My dog Votes!
proud member of the MUMS 2009 7th place team CISRA 2009 1st place team SUMS 2009 2nd place team
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-02-2008, 03:06 PM
adojrts's Avatar
adojrts adojrts is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,089
Default

agree with everything above ^^^

If it were me, I would also video tape my training sessions in other places where her stays are excellent and then tape my sessions in class. Compare the two, see if you can pick up anything that you are doing different, especially in the presence of your instructor in which you could be stressed a bit or nervous etc.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-02-2008, 03:12 PM
Doberluv's Avatar
Doberluv Doberluv is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: western Wa
Posts: 21,915
Default

This is why people feel they need to correct or use aversives on their dogs for being "stubborn" or "naughty." They set them up to fail. They ask too much too soon. If things are set up in a way that the dog is less likely to fail and more likely to succeed at baby steps, the reinforcement they receive for those baby steps raises the odds significantly that they will give more correct responses in the future. When you read all that mumbo jumbo that I wrote, it may appear to be some very long, super gradual process. But suprisingly, it is not.

You don't waste time with so many mistakes that you have to "correct." All that just wastes time and doesn't give the dog effective feed back.

He also misses the association between the cue and the behavior. (if the cue is used too early on in his training of that skill)

After a few successes and reinforcements, the catching on to it snowballs. In other words, the dog learns HOW to learn...gets onto the game...stops guessing at what he's being reinforced for and gets down to the business of trying that behavior again which brought him the good stuff.

Breaking things down and going slower at first will in effect be faster and more easily understood by the dog.

I use to teach swimming lessons a long time ago and a lot of the students were children. They always have a tendancy to thrash around and "reach and pull" way too fast. They feel the need because they start to sink if they don't. But their reaching and pulling is so ineffective. They're not pulling much water. So, I told them to slow way down and pull strongly, but not in a rush. (a very difficult thing for children to do. It goes against their instinct almost) I told them, "slower is faster." And once they got their stroke regular, rhythmical and strong, then they could increase the speed. It's kind of the same thing with dog training. Slower (at first) ends up being faster.
__________________
"If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams 1776





"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

Thomas Jefferson
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-02-2008, 03:21 PM
Dekka's Avatar
Dekka Dekka is offline
Just try me..
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ontario
Posts: 19,342
Default

Another suggestion (all the above stuff is great) don't work on any formal recalls or restrained type recalls for the next week or so while you are working on this. Make sure YOU go back to reward her, not her getting rewards for coming to you.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:08 PM.


©1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site