What do you guys think of this breeder?

Originally Posted by Miakoda

The dogs are still RE dogs. No matter what, Dave Wilson (the founder), said in his own words that the RE line was developed by crossing the APBT with other breeds. So now matter what they look like, it's what they really are...and are not...that matters.

Eh, many of the dogs on the ancestor's page make me wanna pukie. Here's the deal: If you have an APBT and in that 7-generation pedigree you have 3 dogs that are [English] Bulldog or Neo Mastiff mixes, is your dog still an "APBT"?

I think it's great they are showing the dogs. But showing doesn't equal breeding rights. And personally, I'm not a fan of breeding a dog with "fair" hips...especially when chances are the other dog has not been OFA'd. In fact, if I had the perfect working dog who had fair hips, I would ONLY breed to a dog with excellent hips and I'd be culling hard.

But if you're asking for opinions, they are much better than the average breeder, but no, it's not someone I would ever get a dog from.

(& I'm not even going to comment on that asinine $1,000 stud fee when the dog has proven nothing to me)

Good point. If I'm out to buy an APBT, I want an APBT, not a dog who is is part mastiff and english bulldog. I hate seeing that bloodline (along with many others) no matter what the dog looks like or how much health testing and showing they do.

The males definitely look too heavy for my tastes.

I will say that they are better than 90% of the APBT breeders out there who use that particular bloodline. The dogs dont look deformed, so thats a plus.

[Bahamutt99]

Originally Posted by Miakoda

And personally, I'm not a fan of breeding a dog with "fair" hips...especially when chances are the other dog has not been OFA'd. In fact, if I had the perfect working dog who had fair hips, I would ONLY breed to a dog with excellent hips and I'd be culling hard.

Mia, in fairness, do you know just how few of our breed have excellent hips? At least in terms of OFA ratings? 5.7% according to their records. Compared to almost 24% dysplastic. I personally would not like to see Fair x Fair, but Fair is still passing.

To the OP, I was not impressed with that breeder in terms of what I personally look for. I don't like the blue x blue breedings, and am concerned that they seem to have a color bias. But compared to what is available today, they title and health-test, and they are honest. That speaks quite a bit to their character. I would like to see more titling -- specifically working titles -- before the dogs are bred. But I would place them in the short list of breeders worth a second look, if you like the type of dog they're producing.

[Miakoda]

I personally would not like to see Fair x Fair, but Fair is still passing.

But how many "just passings" are we going to allow? Fair to Fair to Fair to Fair isn't going to help these dogs.

Now, I don't OFA my dogs now nor have I never done so. Not because I'm against it, but rather because I have 8 vets at my disposal, 1 being a board certified orthopedic surgeon, to give me their opinions on hips & elbows. And since I don't sell dogs nor do I breed for anyone else other than myself, I've never had the reason to pay to have them OFA'd.

And as for the "fair" hips, I'm much more lenient if the dog is a proven working dog vs. some dog that has done nothing but parade around a showring and Champion out before it's even fully matured (when future issues could arise). A proven hunting dog with fair hips is a much hotter commodity to me than a showdog with fair hips.

[Dekka]

Wouldn't dogs doing weightpull be 'working' those hips?

Personally I wouldn't throw away all the dogs with fair hips if thats what you've got. You are better to breed all the ones with fair hips for a while then when you have lots of dogs with fair and excellent then start the rigorous culling. Otherwise you risk a genetic bottleneck which is far worse than fair hips.

Not saying anything on the lines (don't know anything about them) BUT looking at the girls they seem like nice balanced dogs. Not as nice as many I see here on chaz but a heck of a lot better than what I see out there in general. They looked like nice athletic dogs who's breeders are working hard at doing good for their dogs.

And I have no issues with 'other breeds' in my animals. Maybe it stems from my horse background... A little (stress little) cross breeding is a very good thing for most pure bred dogs. I would rather have something that has a touch of something else back there than something that is pure from waaayyy back.

[Bahamutt99]

Originally Posted by Miakoda

But how many "just passings" are we going to allow? Fair to Fair to Fair to Fair isn't going to help these dogs.

Now, I don't OFA my dogs now nor have I never done so.

You just outlined part of the problem. We can't even bitch about fair x fair breedings -- even though I said I would prefer not to see it done -- if most people aren't going to OFA their dogs anyway! You and I have shared board space with some of the most vocal anti-health-testers. Are we really supposed to rely on the 5.7 or whatever percent who are OFAed as excellent? What if only .2% of them were available at public stud? Where are people supposed to find dogs to breed to that have excellent hips if the folks who have supreme confidence in their dogs' health wont even test?

And as for the "fair" hips, I'm much more lenient if the dog is a proven working dog vs. some dog that has done nothing but parade around a showring and Champion out before it's even fully matured (when future issues could arise). A proven hunting dog with fair hips is a much hotter commodity to me than a showdog with fair hips.

I know of a dog who was a bad (and I mean good bad, not bad bad) pulling dog before she failed her OFA for laxity in a hip socket. It really doesn't prove anything. Considering how long dogs have to "fight" the pig if we're talking about hog hunting, one could argue that that's not a real test of hip health either, especially since the dogs are operating in a high state of drive and would be prone to ignoring pain, just like they would in the pit.

Wouldn't dogs doing weightpull be 'working' those hips?

I didn't even see your post when I was replying to Mia, but I cited an example of a dog who was a good puller and then failed OFA. Weight pull isn't really a hip test, and neither his hunting. These dogs have an incredible pain threshhold when it's something they want.