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  #41  
Old 10-22-2008, 07:02 AM
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ok, I'll try upping the food reward. At this point she knows what I want, she just ignores the command. The more she ignores me and gets away with it, the more she learns she "can" get away with it. If I don't stop this now, it will be harder to break down the line.

Anytime I let her meet another dog, I'm setting her up to fail. It might mean that she does not get to see a dog until I can get her in training. Last night I felt frustration more than anything else and removed both of us from the situation.

I made an appointment for 12 days from now with a trainer. I could not get in any sooner. I'm not sure what to do in the interim other than keep looking for another trainer.

I have never been stern with her. I may try some different voice inflections today and see if I can bring her around. One thing is clear, she's out of control at times and that's not pleasurable for anyone.

One thing I have noticed. When I give her a command, it sometimes takes a second for her to process it. I say it once and wait... I can almost see her trying to figure out what I want, or asking if I really mean it, then she does it. That time for her to mentally process the command may be interrupted by her own desires when in such an excited state. In other words, the command may be getting lost in the mental process when she's gone bonkers.

In mild distractions outside, like in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obHhqMw6dpw
she does a good job. Past that distraction level it's chaos. I think I will test her today and see at what minimal distraction point she fails and back off a bit. Get her solid there when I raise the distraction bar slightly, then increase the distraction level and use higher value food rewards and see if voice inflections do any good at all. I'm at a lost at this point and not seeing any improvement at all which is my fault not hers.

When do I train? Morning , afternoon or night? Do I take her for a walk or run before the training? One thing I think I have been doing wrong is feeding her before training and I'll correct that today.
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  #42  
Old 10-22-2008, 07:35 AM
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i would train several times a day but keep your sessions very very short. Mix praise in instead of treats..but i am not a treat trainer, so that is just my opinion. YOu want to make this as fun as possible for your dog so it doesn't get boring. When i worked Victor, a down stay was rewarded with a short run by both of us while he was on leash. Try not to be predicitible, mix it up so our dog is always wondering what YOUR going to do next.
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  #43  
Old 10-22-2008, 07:50 AM
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That's another good point. My pup does not eat much food. She does not eat what she should according to the bag and I have another post going on that very subject.

She is affection motivated and never misses an opportunity to seek it out so maybe that will help. She pulls the most when she meets a new dog and second most when she meets new people.

She has never pulled to get to food but then it's always an all you can eat situation around my house. Food is just not an issue here. I'll try something different today along with more fun and see show she responds.
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  #44  
Old 10-22-2008, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adojrts View Post
lol the quail hearts are freeze dried and come from a local vender that makes all kinds of cool dog treats, all natural etc.
I don't know if they ship to the states or not but I can find out. I am going to an agility trial next month and they should be set up there. They are also located just in the next town from me and I can give him a call.

The quail hearts even freeze dried are still soft and not badly dried out, easy but not messy to split in two. I was really surprised at how much my dogs went nuts for them.............so I use them at trials as a huge reward for a job well done or when training something really difficult.
If you could, I'd love to find out if they ship to the States
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  #45  
Old 10-22-2008, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeLacy View Post
ok, I'll try upping the food reward. At this point she knows what I want, she just ignores the command. The more she ignores me and gets away with it, the more she learns she "can" get away with it. If I don't stop this now, it will be harder to break down the line.

Anytime I let her meet another dog, I'm setting her up to fail. It might mean that she does not get to see a dog until I can get her in training. Last night I felt frustration more than anything else and removed both of us from the situation.

I made an appointment for 12 days from now with a trainer. I could not get in any sooner. I'm not sure what to do in the interim other than keep looking for another trainer.

I have never been stern with her. I may try some different voice inflections today and see if I can bring her around. One thing is clear, she's out of control at times and that's not pleasurable for anyone.

One thing I have noticed. When I give her a command, it sometimes takes a second for her to process it. I say it once and wait... I can almost see her trying to figure out what I want, or asking if I really mean it, then she does it. That time for her to mentally process the command may be interrupted by her own desires when in such an excited state. In other words, the command may be getting lost in the mental process when she's gone bonkers.

In mild distractions outside, like in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obHhqMw6dpw
she does a good job. Past that distraction level it's chaos. I think I will test her today and see at what minimal distraction point she fails and back off a bit. Get her solid there when I raise the distraction bar slightly, then increase the distraction level and use higher value food rewards and see if voice inflections do any good at all. I'm at a lost at this point and not seeing any improvement at all which is my fault not hers.

When do I train? Morning , afternoon or night? Do I take her for a walk or run before the training? One thing I think I have been doing wrong is feeding her before training and I'll correct that today.
Are you free feeding her? If so you are missing a great chance to train not to mention it is harder to house train them and in the long run its not healthy for any dog.
Very easy to use a meal and hand feeding to motivate a dog espeically a puppy.
Personally I don't use verbal commands until I know that the dog/pup will do them reliably all the time with no chance of being blown off or the dog doing a slow response.
It very well could be that your girl doesn't completely understand the command and is being slow to respond or in the past you have given multiple commmands for one behaviour which teaches our dogs to ignore the first command.

Training doesn't have to be any set time, train in short sessions throughout the day, 2-3 mins here and there.
You can also teach her some self control games like It's Your Choice etc.
do a search on this site or google and it should come up. We use it and recommend it all the time. (I am sick at this point and really don't feel up to writing it all out again )

If she is really out of control look at purchasing this book, Control Unleashed, it is very helpful and a good read.

Also please re-cap for me when she is out of control? Is it when she sees other dogs? And wants to meet and greet? (I do believe that is the it lol)
Maybe just maybe at this point there is another way to help you fix this or at least calm things down a bit until you can get some help.
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  #46  
Old 10-22-2008, 10:06 AM
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Thanks Adojts.
To recap:
She is a 6month old recuse Aussie. 15 days ago I brought her home. Never been in a car, been on leash, never seen a tennis ball, never heard the word sit, no, down or any command that I could find and not housebroken. This was a neglected dog picked up as a stray with a scar on her neck like she had an embedded collar. I don't even think she had seen a bird before me. That's where I started 15 days ago.

That video shows where she is today, she is housebroken now, loves the car, loves the dog park and is very social with people and other dogs. No aggression except when she's spooked. She is reactive. She used to want to chase bicycles when I first got her. Not today. She has has a fairly intensive de-sensitizing. I take to to the Bike/Jogger paths, the dog park, walk her on ultra busy streets, she has been to high volume social gatherings and even an outdoor rock concert. She is loose leash trained now and only pulls when she gets out of control. I have been clicker training her since I got her along with verbal and hand cues. I have no previous dog training experience.

She pulls the hardest when she sees other dogs but also gets distracted at paper blowing in the wind and people walking by. The world is still new to her even though she's 6 months old. I have tried to be very consistent with my commands. I have one word for sit, one for down, one for look at me, drop it and so on. That video I think shows that she has at least a basic understanding of the commands.

The issue is when other things are going on, she minds less and sometimes not at all. I can't get her to refocus on my commands because she is focused on whatever interest her at the time. That could be a blowing leaf or a leaf blower. In the house, she perfect, outside with minimal distractions she does well, raise the distraction level and it's an entirely different story. In the pet store for example, she pulls, whines, jumps and goes generally off her rocker.

Other dogs is #1, she wants to play. People are #2, she wants to meet for affection. and #3 is anything that moves. This could go in any order depending on the situation.

You nailed it. I command her and she blows me off. I'm guessing now it's because what's interesting her at the time is more interesting than I am or the reward is not worth the command.
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  #47  
Old 10-22-2008, 02:16 PM
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adojrts adojrts is offline
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I didn't watch the video bc I have dial up and videos take too long to download.
Darlin you need to relax. In 15 days you have done a wonderful job with her and she has learned a TON especially with someone who has never trained a dog before, kudes to both of you.

You have to learn that there are 3 levels of learning for anything, humans, dogs, horses,whales etc. Progression, regression and platueas and you can hit an one of those levels at anytime.
Training is like a 10 story building, you start in the basement and start walking up the stairs, each step is learning ONE behaviour, but we have to go back to the basement when we change the location of where we have been training. Dogs don't generalize very well and they have to learn over time and repeated lessons of the same behaviours in different places, that we want those behaviours in new places. And you go back up the stairs again as you progress, then you may have to stay on a floor for a while continuing to train the same behaviours because the learnee just can't absorb anymore for a bit, this is known as a platuea. And that's OK. Or you go back down the stairs to the point of success when you hit a regression. That's OK too, because once you have trained a behaviour through a regression it usually means that the learnee REALLY understands what we want. Regressions should be expected and welcomed, they also make us as the trainer look at the methods we are using and what we can do to improve on our success. That is all natural, its the way of learning.
You should have reasonable expectations but not unrealistic expectations of what BOTH of you are learning at this time, on your own without instruction from educated eyes.

Now I would put your little girl on Nothing in Life is Free......google that and you'll find the example of it.
I would also put her on a feeding schedule, give her 15 mins to eat, if she doesn't put it up until the next meal, she'll figure out to eat when food is offered and quickly.
Next once she looks forward to her meals, I would ask for a simple behaviour like sitting, when she sits (quickly, slapping that little bum down) feed her some of her meal by hand. If she sits slowly, put the food up and walk away, saying Too bad, in a nice voice or nothing at all. Come back 10 mins later, ask for the sit, fast sit = handing her meal, one kibble at a time. Slow response = walk away again, this time staying away for 15 mins and so on.
You can absolutely use a clicker with this as well, but only clicking and rewarding for fast responses, personally I don't use a verbal command, I wait for the sit and c/r at a high rate, but it had better be fast sits

Try to train when you girl is hungry, just before a meal, you can always reduce the amounts in her meals if you use high quality food rewards.
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  #48  
Old 10-22-2008, 03:49 PM
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The video is just me demonstrating, her sit, wait, down, look and heel command as of yesterday. She does really well considering both our starting points at ZERO.

Great advice, I will do as you say. I really like the idea of fast sit or nothing. I'll relax, not set unrealistic expectations and be looking for a trainer to give me some advice when we get past the current plateau. She went so fast in the first two weeks I expected her to move even faster in the 3rd week. As long as we can both make a "little" progress each week, I'll be happy. Fact is, if she would act like she did in that video when we are out in public, she would be the near perfect dog for me. I keep looking at her and keep saying to myself "wow...what a dog".

I'm baking some treats today based on what you said about flavors and getting away for the salty hotdogs. It;s liver, eggs, salmon, sardines and garlic. No quail hearts could be found at the store. She had a taste of it already and her eyes went W-I-D-E open. "@@". I think I have her attention with this mix. If it's enough to refocus her, we'll see.

I gave her a small piece of raw turkey neck today, I don't think she has ever had a real bone because she couldn't figure out if it was a toy, or something to eat but is figuring it out. She's eats Innova puppy and is a house dog now, her "new" life is pretty good.

Thanks for weighing in...
Joe

BTW, here is the treat recipe:

6 eggs
1 1/3 cup olive oil
2 pound raw beef liver
2 4 oz cans sardines on soybean oil
1 15 oz can Salmon
4 cups flour
3 teaspoon garlic

Puree all meats and oils, then fold in flour, put 1/2" layer of this mixture on a baking dish and bake at 425* for 15 mins. Let cool then cut into bite sizes. Then freeze it to keep fresh and thaw when needed. Makes a zillion.

I did a side by side test 5 times, each time she ate this treat first then the hotdog.

Last edited by JoeLacy; 10-22-2008 at 04:33 PM.
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  #49  
Old 10-22-2008, 05:28 PM
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lizzybeth727 lizzybeth727 is offline
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I watched the video and have just a few comments:

First, I noticed that almost every time (or possibly every time, it's hard to tell for sure) you clicked, you either had a treat in your hand already or were digging for a treat in your pocket before you clicked. (Once you were handing her a treat before you clicked.) She's learning these physical cues much faster than she's learning what the clicker means, and if you continue this, she will learn not to do a behavior unless you have a treat in your hand, and your hand moving to your pocket means that her behavior is finished (same as the click). I spend a lot of time stressing the importance of this to my clients: Click... THEN treat. When you click your body should not be moving at all, so that the only thing your dog notices is the sound. AFTER you click, you can spend all the time you want to dig for the treat. And don't keep treats in your hand, they will become a bribe.

Also, frankly, she looks kinda bored. I think that's part of why she's loosing focus on you, because you're just not being very interesting. Plus it's pretty clear that she's more engaged with you at the beginning of the video than at the end, which also could mean that your session was too long. At this point in her training, if you want her focusing on you 100%, then you should be more interesting than the rest of your surroundings - if you're not, you can move to a less interesting place. As she gets better with the cues and you have a strong, long reinforcement history with the cues, you'll be able to tone yourself down and she'll still excitedly respond to your cues. And end your training sessions BEFORE she starts loosing focus (which was IMO just before the point where she wandered off, about 1:45 into the video; after that, her sits became very sloppy and she started lagging on everything).

Don't get me wrong, though, you both look really awesome, especially for not having had a trainer. But I think to take your training to the level that you seem to want it to be, you're really going to need someone watching you and giving you immediate feedback.
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  #50  
Old 10-22-2008, 05:59 PM
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The very reason I posted that was get to criticism. I do not know what I'm doing and want feedback desperately. It's easier to train the first time than re-train later. The only training I have had is Youtube. That's no excuse for me being inept and I GREATLY appreciate anyones feedback and welcome solid criticism like yours. You are the only person who has told me what I was doing incorrectly and made suggestions from watching me. How would I know if someone didn't say so? Thank you for taking the time.

I keep trying to get this trainer to call me back so we can set a date. I called her office again today. I may have to find another. These trainers are either super busy or not very professional. I am calling off that adpt site you or others suggested but can't seem to connect with a certified trainer. I'm trying to do the right thing, I'm just not sure what it is, sorta like Peyton. The proverbial, blind leading the blind here and I sincerely appreciate your feedback.

I will try another video tomorrow (weather permitting) and attempt to improve my timing and excitement level using your critique. I'm just a pup too and have more to learn than I currently know.

Having a treat in my hand was something they said on Youtube, so I could reward instantly. I will break that habit from now on and stand still, click, then reward for as long as it takes and keep the sessions shorter and more exciting. I'll have to really work to be more interesting than a squirrel though. Anybody renting a Squirrel suit? LOL
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