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  #41  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelSilverman View Post
I always use Agility Trainers as a great example. They click and rarely feed, and look at the attitude.
Who? I have a masters agility dog. I've taken seminars with people who have been to the worlds.

I don't know anyone in agility who clicks and doesn't pay out. If we want more we may pay out and simply NOT click. I don't always use a clicker, but I always in training have something to reward with.
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  #42  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:47 PM
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well, now that that's done with... I think it's time to take the Keeda monster out for a little evening stroll!
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  #43  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:51 PM
JoelSilverman JoelSilverman is offline
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Default Hi Kayla

To be honest, I have never been a huge fan of clicker training for movie dogs, and not because it does not work. It actually works very good, but here is the problem. We want animals looking natural on the set. You have all seen how a clicker gets the animal into you and the training session which is great. Many times it really motivates the animal too. Unfortunately, on the set we want the animal to be mellow, and the last thing we want is the animal all excited and looking at the trainer.

That really is the main reason, and I personally like the bridge "GOOD". It takes the dog's attention off my hands and keeps him focused on me. If you go to my site, under the RETRIEVE in the ONLINE DOG TRAINING AREA, I have 27 one minute clips on teaching a retrieve using "out" as a bridge. But you can definitely use a clicker in place of that. I think I actually vary a lot of the reinforcements in those clips too. So you can see what I am talking about.
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  #44  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:52 PM
Bunny82 Bunny82 is offline
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Can I chime in from a non trainer perspective?

I am not an expert on really all that knowledgeable on clicker training, I always understood it as the click signified that a correct behavior was performed and a reward (treat) was to follow. I probably did not explain that too well but hopefully you know what I mean?

So I am confused when Joel talks about "clicker training" but there is no reward? Doesn't that take away half of the science of the approach and make it a different form of training altogether?
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  #45  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:57 PM
JoelSilverman JoelSilverman is offline
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Hi MafiaPrincess

On my show GOOD DOG U, Karen Moureaux of Contact Point was a guest several times. Apparently she is pretty respected in the Agility Circle. What I am referring to was simply watching her. That is the way I saw her train the dogs, as well as many of her students too. I am sorry if that is something that you do not do, but understand that i just have to write based on what I see.
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  #46  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:58 PM
JoelSilverman JoelSilverman is offline
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If Clicker Training is defined as always giving a reward, then that is not what I do.
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  #47  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunny82 View Post
Can I chime in from a non trainer perspective?

I am not an expert on really all that knowledgeable on clicker training, I always understood it as the click signified that a correct behavior was performed and a reward (treat) was to follow. I probably did not explain that too well but hopefully you know what I mean?

So I am confused when Joel talks about "clicker training" but there is no reward? Doesn't that take away half of the science of the approach and make it a different form of training altogether?
You may not be an expert on the matter but you just nailed it in your last sentence bunny.

Joel- Interesting point you make about the on set mellowness I guess it depends as to what your doing,I dont see why calmness couldnt be clicked, I know I do it all of the time with Duke- especially when we are working around things that used to trigger his reactivity.

Either way you are confusing me in one post you say you do not like clicker training because it is so flawed, and now you say clicker training works great- soo which is it?
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  #48  
Old 10-10-2008, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayla View Post
Either way you are confusing me in one post you say you do not like clicker training because it is so flawed, and now you say clicker training works great- soo which is it?
Which ever gets him a following and causes him to say he's famous the optimum number of times per post.
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  #49  
Old 10-10-2008, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpaeanx View Post
If I opend my paycheck on friday and there was nothing in there you can bet I would not show up to work on Monday....
What if you really liked your job? And instead of getting a paycheck on Friday, you get a slightly bigger paycheck on Monday?
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  #50  
Old 10-10-2008, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelSilverman View Post
If Clicker Training is defined as always giving a reward, then that is not what I do.
That's not what clicker training is defined as.

Clicker training is using a click to MARK a behavior, say, if you were free shaping a roll over, every time the dog moves incrementally to his side, instead of in a sphinx position, you click AND REWARD. Sometimes, if the dog gets confused, you drop criteria until the dog is back to where he was. Eventually (I actually did this in one night with my dog Ozzy) you have a dog that fully understands the concept of roll over.

THEN and ONLY THEN do you add a cue. And you cue the dog every time right before he rolls over. And you reward after every roll over. THEN you start adding variable reinforcements. Sometimes you don't reward after he rolls over. Say, maybe you want him to roll over twice. You hold out on the treat and the click at the end of the behavior until he is doing exactly what you want, when you want, on cue, for no treat, 75 percent of the time.

Then, I consider the behavior trained, but not distraction proofed.

And that's another topic.

Now, I may be wrong, and I may not have explained myself very well, but that's what I do.
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