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  #11  
Old 10-10-2008, 04:45 PM
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Beanie Beanie is offline
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Originally Posted by dr2little View Post
What you did worked for you and for your dog but it is not recommended as a way of using a clicker. The principles of clicker training were not in place here, you were using the clicker incorrectly as a shaping tool....not that it didn't work but if we're talking about the science, then you made a choice to use the clicker in a different way.
Question... would the "correct" use of a clicker here have been to require the dog into the position, NOT CLICK, and then click after a moment of the dog staying in one position? And then to increase the duration for the dog to remain in the position before clicking?


Just trying to understand all of this. =>
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  #12  
Old 10-10-2008, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by corgipower View Post
I started out clicking and treating when he got himself into the correct position. It didn't take long for him to begin leaving heel as soon as he got his treat so that he could be rewarded for returning to the correct place.
when i use a clicker, the click effectively marks the end of the behavior. i would simply not have clicked him immediately, since the behavior you were looking for was not "find the position" but rather "find the position and maintain it". then i would have gotten the behavior i wanted and not diluted the clicker.

i simply don't think it's fair to make the effort to teach the dog that click = reward and then withhold that reward. it just seems... dishonest i guess. varying rewards is important, and varying your schedule is important. there are plenty of other ways to give feedback to your dog that they're on the right track without using your reward marker.
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  #13  
Old 10-10-2008, 04:48 PM
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beanie from what I know of clicker training I would say yes....

but I'll wait for the doc to explain... I"m interested in that too!
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  #14  
Old 10-10-2008, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanie View Post
Question... would the "correct" use of a clicker here have been to require the dog into the position, NOT CLICK, and then click after a moment of the dog staying in one position? And then to increase the duration for the dog to remain in the position before clicking?


Just trying to understand all of this. =>
Yes, that's exactly what would be done for a dog that you're CERTAIN knows the behavior. If you're having difficulty, then I would reshape (and even rename) the behavior as if the dog was a 'freshy'.

For a novice dog, shapping the behavior in small steps (approximations of behavior) will get you there.
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  #15  
Old 10-10-2008, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by elegy View Post
when i use a clicker, the click effectively marks the end of the behavior. I would simply not have clicked him immediately, since the behavior you were looking for was not "find the position" but rather "find the position and maintain it". Then i would have gotten the behavior i wanted and not diluted the clicker.

I simply don't think it's fair to make the effort to teach the dog that click = reward and then withhold that reward. It just seems... Dishonest i guess. Varying rewards is important, and varying your schedule is important. there are plenty of other ways to give feedback to your dog that they're on the right track without using your reward marker.
exactly!
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  #16  
Old 10-10-2008, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by elegy View Post
there are plenty of other ways to give feedback to your dog that they're on the right track without using your reward marker.
that's what I do when they've learned something. They get a "good[command]" and a scratch. I always treat after clicking though... I would feel like I was lying to her if I didn't!
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  #17  
Old 10-10-2008, 04:59 PM
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What you wrote here is:
The click signifies that a reward is coming but not what or how many.

What you wrote there is exactly what we do, and how we use it 100%. We use it that way with marine mammals and dogs. I am trying to understand where you are coming from, so bear with me. If you are doing something different than this, my question is why would you do anything different?

I think I can explain better how most dog trainers use it that I know, including myself. The only time we use it with dogs is when we want to bridge a defined time that the animal did something correct. Like with the eye cover.. especially early on in training. Or maybe a dog standing on his hind legs. The sound works so much better than the word "good". We bridge and then reward with food intermittently.

I hope this explains what we do.
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  #18  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelSilverman View Post
What you wrote here is:
The click signifies that a reward is coming but not what or how many.

What you wrote there is exactly what we do, and how we use it 100%. We use it that way with marine mammals and dogs. I am trying to understand where you are coming from, so bear with me. If you are doing something different than this, my question is why would you do anything different?

I think I can explain better how most dog trainers use it that I know, including myself. The only time we use it with dogs is when we want to bridge a defined time that the animal did something correct. Like with the eye cover.. especially early on in training. Or maybe a dog standing on his hind legs. The sound works so much better than the word "good". We bridge and then reward with food intermittently.

I hope this explains what we do.
In previous posts you said that you would click as a reward marker and often NOT follow the click with a reward. This is where you loose me.
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  #19  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:06 PM
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and me... my understanding of your posts was the the click was the reward.... now you're saying the exact opposite... so confused!
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  #20  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:08 PM
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This is from the clicker 101 thread - Joel Silvermans states -

That was a great description of clicker training, but if I could, I would like to make just one correction. Being a former killer whale and dolphin trainer (you can see the pictures on my website), I actually won the I.M.A.T.A. "Behavior of the Year Award" in 1986. I just wanted to mention that I, along with many other marine mammal trainers found that the clicker or whistle did not need to be followed by the reinforcer, as you mentioned.

I teach people that the clicker or whistle is a form of communication, and nothing else. It only means the animal did the behavior correctly. Will the animal get a reward? Probably, but on a varied schedule, it creates much more drive and excitement from the animal. I teach trainers to stay unpredictable. If you want a great example in dog training, take a look at the agility trainers. They click, but sometimes never reward the animal until the end. That builds drive and attitude.


This is what I'm referring to..
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