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  #21  
Old 09-29-2008, 11:08 AM
Falconara Falconara is offline
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Oh -- I didnt realize that new advice was a requirement. That one really didnt offer anything so I didnt think it was.

I hope my post was OK...I tried to bring in what I knew...but I only read the Original Post so I dont know if anyone brought up those points or not already O.o

~Cate
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  #22  
Old 09-29-2008, 11:18 AM
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Dekka Dekka is offline
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snarky?

I just was trying to clairfy. You were the one who said that Red's post was unclear. If you repeat what the last 10 posters have said then why post? There are no 'requirements' in that sense. It does make you look like you don't bother to read other peoples posts though. In which case you didn't. Personally I read the other posts so that way if the topic has changed or the OP has came back and asked a new question I don't look silly . And that way I can give more specific and useful advice.
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  #23  
Old 09-29-2008, 11:28 AM
Falconara Falconara is offline
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Not really snarky....just honest. My sincere apologies to the OP if my post was redundant and non-useful.

~Cate
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  #24  
Old 09-29-2008, 11:48 AM
borzoimom borzoimom is offline
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( done blow drying dogs..)
I have had several times dogs come into my classes, having been in other classes with trainers and owners that had no clue we had to go back to square one.
Frequently I have put a dog that suffered a trama in my " older seasoned, more trained classes". While they may not know what is being taught- the fact is the dog learns being around other dogs is okay and from there, I can put them where the dog belongs.
The last class that just finished had a border collie that was " jumped" by a lab mix breed in another class ( obviously not taught by me), and scared of other dogs. I put her in my adult classes with owners I knew, dogs I knew and sure enough the dog got over their fear of other dogs.
Some trainers have no clue what they are doing. Dont know the owners, the dogs nor do they know when the dogs are able to be off lead.
I am making the statement you need someone that knows what the heck they are doing- able to read the class, the dogs, the owners and when next steps fit the situation. Not to mention know the breeds involved. And adult sighthound for example is going to be offended with a " whatever the day" care type golden or boisterious dog. As a trainer we match our classes, the owners, the breed type. Example- I would not put a chihuahua pup in a class with say great dane pups.. Maybe its just second nature to me, but really- as stated = my advice here is to get a trainer that knows what they heck they are doing..
I do not understand when the dog was " jumped" why the trainer did not step in. To show the owner of the dog that jumped how to correct, correct the dog that did "jump" the other dog, and help the OP understand what happened.
Hardly a good trainer to me.
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  #25  
Old 09-29-2008, 11:56 AM
release the hounds release the hounds is online now
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sometimes reiterating what has been said can help solidify a position. There's no way I'm going to help someone get over aggression problems over the internet, because they are describing things the way they see them, which isn't always the way I'd see them, or the way you might see it if you were there.

Given that, and that I'd approach different sorts of aggression in different manners, not big differences, but some sublte ones none the less, and what I'd do, and how that message gets interpreted by the person on the other side of the screen usually aren't close to the same, I generally don't give a lot of advice, especially when "aggression" is the problem. Bring the dog to me, I can probably have things cleared up pretty quickly.

But one thing is for sure, regardless of if there was a problem now or not, I would not be going to that class. I do have shepherds and dogs with drive are a blast to train.
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  #26  
Old 09-29-2008, 12:01 PM
borzoimom borzoimom is offline
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amen RTH.. exactly..
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  #27  
Old 09-29-2008, 12:49 PM
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Romy Romy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falconara View Post
However :

The human aggression probably wouldnt have come from this class as the dog aggression shouldnt translate...its a different folder in the dogs mind.

I have a HUGE amount of reservations about using a prong collar on a pup...and I have reservations about using them on any dog. They can be a great tool in the right hands with the right dog...otherwise they are a disaster. For example...you might have corrected your dog for barking and lunging at a car, but they might have seen a human at the moment of correction....which means they associate human with bad thing...which can lead to human aggression. You just have to be very exact and very aware when using them. Additionally...probably not a good idea to use a correction collar on a dog with fear issues....because your going to make the fear issues worse.

Whats more...when you are using a correction collar on a dog for barking and lunging at another dog you also have to be very careful...because it is likely that you will train the dog to hide the aggressive warning signs and go straight for the attack....causing you to have a dangerous and unpredictable dog....very bad in a shepherd from those lines...I've been bit like a dog like that at traininig....no warning, just bite.

Positive methods generally are better in my mind for fixing these issues....you use distance and basically reward whenever the dog is being good, decreasing the distance as you get closer...as soon as you see a hint of a problem increase the distance and begin again.

I will say that drivey dogs are a dream with the positve methods training...especially in the beginning....my female has lower drives and is harder to train...while my male is all drives and comes to class (when I take him) as the star....because he'll do anything for food or a Cuz ball or a Tug (albiet I might loose some fingers in the process).

We tend towards positive methods initially in my Club...and then when the dog has the idea (also depending on the dog) we might add in a correction collar to clean up the routine...but this usually isnt until the dog is a bit older, and already knows what they are supposed to do.

~Cate
This is very true, coming from my experience with Anko. The click to calm approach is a very effective way of getting them over their reactiveness. She went from lunging and snarling at other dogs on walks, to being able to happily play with a few well behaved dogs and ignore others on walks. She was a GSD, a rescue but several Sch people told us she looked and acted all DDR lines, so yes she was drivey. My aunt also rescued a Sch washout from west german lines, both parents SchIII. She had essentially been ruined by harsh training as a very young pup, was very fear aggressive towards men and children. My aunt used the basic premise behind click to calm to desensitize Candy to kids and men. Now she LOVES them. Babies can safely crawl around her and she approaches strange friendly men to solicit loves and pets.

From what I understand, and Sch people please correct me if I am wrong, most people training a drivey working dog for PP or Sch spend the first several months of the pup's life building drive and confidence, then introduce tools like prongs when they are much older and more emotionally developed.

Just out of curiousity? Is she only acting aggressive towards humans in the classroom? That's what it sounds like. Do they have their unruly puppies with them when it happens? Or is it happening outside the class?
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  #28  
Old 09-29-2008, 12:55 PM
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DanL DanL is offline
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I don't have anything to add except that I don't think it is the training method, but how the class was managed that caused the problem. Czech/DDR lines are traditionally more defensive but that trait isn't going to manifest itself at 5 months old. This sounds more like a fear based reaction based on the bad experience the pup has had while in this class.
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  #29  
Old 09-29-2008, 01:12 PM
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corgipower corgipower is offline
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I agree with everyone who says to get a new trainer. The pup needs to learn positive associations with dogs and people. She doesn't need to play with them, she needs to learn that when they're nearby everything is good.

As for chasing the car, it could have been a reactive response, but if it truly was play/chase behavior, I still wouldn't correct for it. I would distract the dog and then go home and in a quiet environment I would work on teaching a leave it command. Work on basic obedience in quiet settings and add distractions slowly.

If you take her to a group class, make sure nothing is going to be a setback and don't worry too much about the obedience itself but just her being in that setting with nothing bad happening.
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  #30  
Old 09-29-2008, 02:39 PM
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GSDlover_4ever GSDlover_4ever is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanL View Post
I don't have anything to add except that I don't think it is the training method, but how the class was managed that caused the problem. Czech/DDR lines are traditionally more defensive but that trait isn't going to manifest itself at 5 months old. This sounds more like a fear based reaction based on the bad experience the pup has had while in this class.
I believe this could be defensive drives, starting to appear at that young age, and Masi not having a clue how to handle the "pressure". If she were only reacting towards other dogs, then I would have to agree with you Dan, but she is becoming defensive towards people as well. I think she needs a load of socialization right now to work her through this. Its not a training issue but more of a behavioral/genetic issue. Dogs mature at different rates and dogs with high defensive drives, and high suspicion (ddr czech), can develope those drives way too early and become overwhelmed and "lash out".

You know how to build her confidence, Diane. Good luck, and remember its 99.9% chance thats its only a phase (but she needs YOU to help her get through it).
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